[00:00:10] Elton Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown. Today, we have Kwanza Msingwana will be with us today, and he's going to read a poem called Old Woman, Sing Me a Song. The virtual floor is yours, sir! 

[00:00:32] Kwanza Msingwana: All right. Uh, good afternoon, everyone. Uh, so here's the poem. Old Woman, Sing Me a Song.

[00:00:46] Kwanza Msingwana: Every time I see her face, old as time, reflecting the sluggish stream of life snaking around on its journey of eternity, I yearn to understand her more. [00:01:00] Changes come, changes go, but her presence is infinite, for she is the keeper of time. Each line on her face tells a story of her wealth of wisdom. I see her wizened face everywhere, her hands gnarled by and calloused by time and endless toil.

[00:01:22] Kwanza Msingwana: With bruised pride she plods on undaunted, her spirit unbroken. She works the land, stained by blood of innocents, soggy from tears of sorrow. Once married to Old Man River, she knew...

[00:01:43] Kwanza Msingwana: the meaning of harmony. Now exiled in the valley of grief, she cares for all and dispensing patience and fortitude of spirit. Long ago, she flew [00:02:00] over great waters in pursuit of ships of doom, watching over the, those captured, excuse me, those captured, chained, shackled and forced to cross in bondage. She gave a part of her heart and buried of, burial of honor to those who fed the ocean.

[00:02:28] Kwanza Msingwana: Escaping the devil's clutch, hell's kingdom, her soul nurtured the resistors and survivors of the plunder. She danced in her youth. Oh, how she danced, and sang of virtues to her young ones. Every time I see you, old woman, I long to ask you, would you sing me a song, old woman? Whenever I touch and hear the sound of a drum, I think of you, [00:03:00] beautiful, proud, resilient, strong, wise, full of- Resources.

[00:03:10] Kwanza Msingwana: Old woman, you are my mother

[00:03:15] Kwanza Msingwana: Full of grace, the source of my strength. Because of you, I am.

[00:03:24] Rita Burke: How absolutely delightful! 

[00:03:27] Kwanza Msingwana: Thank you! 

[00:03:29] Rita Burke: Old Woman Sing Me a Song. There's no question that that poem is an ode to someone special. 

[00:03:39] Kwanza Msingwana: Yes, indeed. 

[00:03:39] Rita Burke: Today on SpeakUP! International, we are speaking with Kwanza Msingwana. He's an educator, he's a musician, he's a poet, and he's a storyteller. He has traveled widely in Africa, North America, Europe, the Carib- the [00:04:00] Caribbean, and Latin America.

[00:04:02] Rita Burke: Kwanza has published a collection of short stories called Mountains Never Meet. He has performed for Nelson Mandela, Desmond Tutu, and Angela Davis. There's so much more that I want to tell you about Kwanza, whom I've known for about 30-plus years. But as we say on SpeakUP! International, we prefer if our guests tell their own stories.

[00:04:34] Rita Burke: And so today, Kwanza, I welcome you to SpeakUP! International! 

[00:04:39] Kwanza Msingwana: Thank you. Thank you, and such a great honor to be a part of the SpeakUP! International. Um, when we ran into each other at the, um, Daniel Spectrum, and you mentioned it to me, I was very excited because part of what we were [00:05:00] doing, my friend Kenneth and I, uh, at that event, was to start, uh, to set the tone for what was gonna be happening for the rest of the evening by playing drums.

[00:05:13] Kwanza Msingwana: And then you recognized me and came out, and, um, when you saw me, I, I was so glad because I was like, "Hey, it's always nice to reconnect." So I'm thankful for that moment.

[00:05:28] Ellington Brown: you've been traveling all over the planet, Africa, and other parts of the world. So in all of your travel, which place changed your perspectives on life? 

[00:05:47] Kwanza Msingwana: Um, actually everywhere I've been have had something to do with my growth as an individual because, um[00:06:00] 

[00:06:02] Kwanza Msingwana: I've learned something from all the places that I have been to. But I think if I was to choose one place that kind of set the tone for me in terms of my travels and meeting people from other cultures and experiencing other cultures, it was my first visit to Jamaica. Because as it turned out, I was very...

[00:06:30] Kwanza Msingwana: I was... It was the first time I was, I was traveling outside of Canada, and the ticket that I got to, to travel, the reason for going to, to Jamaica was to go do, make a re- a record, make an album with a group that I used to play with called Anj- Awanja. And so the, the challenges of, uh, dealing with international rules [00:07:00] taught me something about not taking anything for granted.

[00:07:06] Kwanza Msingwana: So then being in Jamaica, also the experience of being in a, in a land I hadn't been before, I was like, "Oh my goodness." But I was also struck by the fact that so much looked very much the same as what I knew growing up in Africa

[00:07:29] Rita Burke: Sounds to me much like the first time I visited Jamaica and I was inspired, surprised, shocked, alarmed at the beauty of the place and said to my husband- Mm ... who was born in Jamaica- Right ... "You never told me it was, you never told me it was this beautiful. You never told me it was this beautiful." I, I couldn't imagine this absolutely delightful place to have been for the first time.[00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Rita Burke: But this is the question I want you to talk to us about now, and that is you collect folktales, or at least it says that in your bio. So what is the impetus for starting that journey of collecting folktales? 

[00:08:18] Kwanza Msingwana: Um, well, you know, most people, particularly people of my age, because things have changed since the '60s, the '70s when I was a young man and a young boy learning about life and getting to, to understand and grasp something about the culture that I was surrounded by.

[00:08:42] Kwanza Msingwana: Um, it was very common for us, when I say us, I mean children, to gather together in the evenings, sometimes, uh, while the moon was up high in the air, and we're sitting there by the fireplace and telling [00:09:00] stories. And for children, we were listening to stories told by our elders. One of the people that I always, um, recognize as one of the people who inspired me, really, I speak of him as one of the great storytellers that I know, was my father.

[00:09:23] Kwanza Msingwana: So both my parents actually were good storytellers because my mother also had quite a few stories that she shared which helped make us the people that we are, my, my, my siblings and myself. And so listening to these stories, at some point as a young, as a young person, as a boy, I discovered that I remembered these stories.

[00:09:53] Kwanza Msingwana: I remembered the lessons in those stories, and that was very attractive to me. And because they told them [00:10:00] in ways that were very funny, I was like, "Okay, I like this. I can do this." And so for as, as long as I can remember, I've always told stories. And lo and behold, when I came to Canada, I discovered actually it- people can be professionals in telling stories.

[00:10:26] Kwanza Msingwana: It can, it can become a viable profession and something I can do to make a living. So that was really where it started, hearing my, my parents and the elders telling stories. And the lessons from those stories were very crucial in making me the person that I am today. 

[00:10:46] Ellington Brown: The power of parenting can be for good or for bad, and I think a lot of the stories my mom told me, some of them, they just went, like, w- right over my head. [00:11:00] But later in life, you know, she came back to me and told me again, but I didn't understand what that, what it meant by then, but I was a lot older, of course.

[00:11:14] Ellington Brown: You have met Nobel laureates. So, N- Nelson Man- Mandela, Mr. Tutu. How was it to be in the presence of these gentlemen, and what did you take away from that meeting? 

[00:11:40] Kwanza Msingwana: Oh my goodness. Um, is it... What is interesting is I actually met, uh, Umfundisi as he's known, was known in South Africa, uh, Desmond Tutu, Bishop Desmond Tutu, [00:12:00] back in 1988, '86, when I lived in Nairobi, Kenya.

[00:12:06] Kwanza Msingwana: He had come out, uh, to Nairobi, and um, there was another man that he came to visit us, meaning it was a group of, uh, exiled South African young people that lived in Nairobi, um, came to visit us. Uh, because there was a, a group of us, and which space should we use to meet with him? And it was something that was arranged, it was a meeting that was arranged by, uh, if I remember correctly, his name was Pastor, uh, Kusel.

[00:12:44] Kwanza Msingwana: He was a German, uh, priest who was born in South Africa. His pa- his parents were... His father was a preacher of the, uh, of the German-speaking church in South Africa. But his [00:13:00] family, Pastor Kusel, when he was an adult, um, got kicked out of South Africa and was given only 72 hours to get out of, of there, because one of the things that he did, or his church did, was to support South African activists that were, um, were put in jail because of resisting and being, um, fighters against apartheid system.

[00:13:34] Kwanza Msingwana: So the, the white government decided, "You know what? You don't like this system, get out of here, and you have 72 hours to get yourself together to get out of here." But they also found a place for him to go Um, no. They kicked him out, but the church... The government kicked him out, but his church said, "Okay, we will [00:14:00] send you to Kenya, to Nairobi, and you can be in charge of our church, uh, over there."

[00:14:08] Kwanza Msingwana: So they had a church hall for the German-speaking churches in, in Kenya that was based in Nairobi, the capital of the city, and that's where we met. And, um, it was very interesting, especially hearing his views, 'cause they were there to, for a symposium to talk about the apartheid system and how it was affecting people.

[00:14:34] Kwanza Msingwana: So the rabbi from, uh, that was part of that was go- was going to be going to South Africa with him after the, um, the symposium. So they just spent a couple of days in town before they went down. And so we had an opportunity to meet with him. So, you know, we were singing and clapping and some dancing. Some of the members of the, [00:15:00] the community of the South African, uh, group that was there were singers and, and dancers, you know.

[00:15:06] Kwanza Msingwana: And one of the things that is famous, uh, South Africa, South Africans are famous for is the gumboot dance. So I can remember one of the, one of the people, one of the, the b- the men, um, Shorts is what we called him. Um, his nickname was Shorts, and did a very marvelous, uh, gumboot dance So that was the first time when I met, um, Umfundisi.

[00:15:42] Kwanza Msingwana: The second time was here in Toronto when he came to town to speak on... Again, it was, uh, there was a big rally back in 1986, in s- the spring of '86. And, um, he [00:16:00] was here with, uh, Harry Belafonte and a couple of other s- uh, so-called celebrities that were involved with the rally against apartheid, which was organized by local, um, Torontonians who were opposed to the, uh, apartheid system.

[00:16:22] Kwanza Msingwana: So this was during the time when they created the, um, the rally against apartheid. It was really to let people know that we have to make our governments stop supporting, um, the g- the governments by conducting pol- political activities with South Africa so that it would become a pariah, and economically it would, it will feel the strain, and so will hopefully abandon the system, um, for the benefit of the, for [00:17:00] the benefit of the Africans.

[00:17:02] Kwanza Msingwana: So when he came to town, the last day of the rally, really the day after the rally, which took place at Queen's Park, he was speaking behind the, um... He was speaking, uh... I remember Jackie Richardson, um, singing the blues, and Harry Belafonte did not sing. He was just here to, to speak. Um, Desmond Tutu spoke.

[00:17:33] Kwanza Msingwana: While he was... Before he spoke, actually, when he was arriving, um, I was backstage with some friends of mine and some of the, some of the people that were involved with the rally. Um, he was getting out of the car, going on stage backstage behind the, behind the, uh, the stage. And [00:18:00] his, uh, his niece, his nephew ac- Uh, no, it was actually his niece, 'cause I meet, I met the nephew after.

[00:18:10] Kwanza Msingwana: Invited me to go with them to, you know, "Come, come, come, come on stage." And I was like, "No, I'm, I'm not part of it. I don't want to, uh, make myself bigger, look bigger than life. I, I, I do not want to big myself up in that way." So that was the second time. And I got to meet, um, his family as well, because his sister, um, has been living here for, for many years.

[00:18:40] Kwanza Msingwana: And so that happened in '86 Then in 1988, I went to meet him again in Buffalo. Buffalo, New York. He was, uh, giving a [00:19:00] speech. He was brought by the, um, some, one of the churches there was sponsoring this, uh, this presentation, which happened at the University of, uh, um State University of, of New York at the Buffalo campus.

[00:19:19] Kwanza Msingwana: And, um, so I got to meet him there again. And I can tell you, that man was quite the orator, and he was an amazing storyteller and a jokester. He could tell a mean joke. Now, with Nelson Mandela, President Nelson Mandela, I met him in 2001

[00:19:46] Kwanza Msingwana: because he came to town. He came a, he came a couple of times because he was here, um, before that, sometime soon after he was released from prison. He came to, to Toronto because the city had [00:20:00] organized this big celebration for him, and they involved some children's choirs. There was a lot of children that came to the SkyDome, um, to sing in his honor.

[00:20:13] Kwanza Msingwana: I didn't meet him at that time, but when he came back again this second, second time around was to rename the parks, uh, park, Park School in Regent Park. It's now known as, uh, Nelson Mandela Park School. In 2001, he came to inaugurate that, uh, under the new name. So there was a big event. Lots of, uh, people and dignitaries from within Canada came to speak at the school.

[00:20:50] Kwanza Msingwana: And, um, so I was invited to come and participate in the celebrations. Um, [00:21:00] and I created a song. I did not create a song, but I taught the students a song to welcome Nelson Mandela when he was in town and when he was introduced, um, at the school. So that was... It was quite an honor, actually. And especially to say that he danced to the music that I played because we knew that, uh, it's known that he loved music.

[00:21:31] Kwanza Msingwana: He loved children. He loved music. And so one of the interesting things was that when the o- the door opened, the cue came on, and he came... Um, he walked into the gym, and the drums were already playing, and he came in, like, dancing. But by that time He was already having hearing problems, [00:22:00] and he was wearing hearing aid.

[00:22:03] Kwanza Msingwana: But he heard the music, and he started dancing, which presented a problem for the, um, um, for the security, uh, team because they would say, "Oh, Mr. Mandera, this way please. This way please." And they pushed him to guide him to go over to the, um, to the stage. But he was still moving to that music. And of course, people of the...

[00:22:28] Kwanza Msingwana: Members of the community that were able to pile into the, the gym were also very, very happy about that, you know, celebrating this man of such, uh, stature and, um, international renown. 

[00:22:47] Rita Burke: We're talking with Kwanza Msingwana, who is considered one of our community builders. And [00:23:00] on SpeakUP! International, we have the opportunity to have conversations with people from all over the world.

[00:23:06] Rita Burke: Kwanza, at the top of the show, you read a poem entitled Old Woman, Sing Me a Song. And then in response to Elton's, one of Elton's earlier questions, you said it was common for children to gather around the fire to hear stories told by the elders. Now, my question to you then is, do you have a favorite folk tale that you can recall?

[00:23:42] Rita Burke: What is it? And if you're willing to, share it with us, please. 

[00:23:47] Kwanza Msingwana: Uh, I do actually. I have several. Um-

[00:23:53] Kwanza Msingwana: Yeah, there's a, a whole bunch of s- of, of stories. But, uh, I can share [00:24:00] one and condense it so that it fits for the, um, for the time that we have. And it is called... It's actually the story of how the, the tortoise got its shell to be looking so lumpy and to get the shape that it got. And the story, I will say it the way, um, we will say...

[00:24:27] Kwanza Msingwana: I'll use some of the words, uh, Africans use when they tell stories. Um, for instance, in East Africa, they say, where the Swahili language is the lingua franca, they will say, "Hadithi hadithi." And the audience will respond by saying, "Hadithi njoo." In Nigeria, uh, some people say, "Ti ti ti gi," and the response is, "Yee."

[00:24:59] Kwanza Msingwana: So, [00:25:00] um, these are just two expressions that are used to introduce a story. So I'll start by saying, Hadithi hadithi, hadithi njoo. Long time ago The tortoise was invited by the birds because the birds themselves were invited by the, the sky gods said, "Hey, come on to, over to us. We have a big fête coming up.

[00:25:36] Kwanza Msingwana: We have a big celebration. It will be very beautiful and very nice if you would come and join us 'cause there's going to be a lot of food, lots of entertainment, dancing and singing. And when we say food, we mean, like, all different kinds of food, as much as you can eat. So please come to visit us, and we will [00:26:00] all celebrate together."

[00:26:03] Kwanza Msingwana: The torchiness was like when you heard this news, you was like, "Wait, uh, is food, a lot of food? Ah, goodness me. I mean, I want to be there." So, uh But how, how do I, do I do this? How do I go there because I cannot fly. I have no wings

[00:26:35] Kwanza Msingwana: Ah, I have an idea. He went to the chief of the birds and said, "Listen. You see, it's customary that when somebody is invited to an, to a special occasion, especially in this case, um, is a celebration and you have the invitation from the gods of the [00:27:00] skies- It's customary that you have yourself somebody that you appoint as the leader of the, the d- the delegation.

[00:27:12] Kwanza Msingwana: So I should be your leader. You should elect me to come with you so I can be the, the chief of the, of the birds. And the birds had a discussion amongst themselves

[00:27:29] Kwanza Msingwana: And they discuss and they say, "But how is that gonna work? Because the tortoise cannot fly." And, um

[00:27:42] Kwanza Msingwana: One bird, a sparrow called Mouse, said, "I have an idea. If we each, all of us birds, take a feather each and gave it to, to the turtles, then he will be able to travel, to fly with us and go to the skies." [00:28:00] And so the birds agreed to contribute a feather each so that they could fly with, with this, uh, with the turtle so that the turtle, he could be their, their chief.

[00:28:16] Kwanza Msingwana: He can represent them because they have never been to such an event where you had to have someone who knew what the protocols were, how to behave in such a big en- um, environment and invitation, and dignitaries from all over the place. So they gave the turtles, uh, their, their feathers, and soon enough, it was time to make their way to the skies through the air

[00:28:48] Kwanza Msingwana: Partway there, the turtle said, "Wait. Um, so when you have a leader, and [00:29:00] most likely they will ask when we get up to the skies, who is your chief?" "What's, what's your chief called?" And the birds were, like, looking at each other and having their little discussion and discussing. "

Tweet, tweet, tweet. Tweet, tweet.

Tweet, tweet." 

[00:29:23] Kwanza Msingwana: And he said, "Okay, I have an idea. Since I have feathers and I'm in... I represent everybody, I should be known as All Of You."

[00:29:39] Kwanza Msingwana: And, and the birds again, they had their little discussion and they said, "Yeah, why not? Because, you know, he, like he's got the feather from each and every one of us that's here." Okay, and they carried on, and they arrived at their appointed place. And when it came time to have food, [00:30:00] um, the chief of the skies said, you know, hello to everybody, and welcomed them to the, um, to the skies, and said, "Okay, so before we eat the food..."

[00:30:19] Kwanza Msingwana: When the food was brought, ob- obviously everybody could see, like, oh, my goodness, whew, look at all this food. It looked beautiful just how it was displayed, the colors, the different colors, the sauces, the juices, and, um, the, the meats, and the flowers, and feathers, and other, other foods that were there so that nobody was left behind.

[00:30:46] Kwanza Msingwana: Came, it was, it was incredible. Of course, the turtle was like... The, the turtle, the tortoise was, like, beside himself with greed, with hunger. [00:31:00] And when the chief said, chief of the sky said, "Okay, so for us up here, the custom is the chief, the leader of the, the, the, the group, the invited guests should be, should give a speech."

[00:31:23] Kwanza Msingwana: And be the first one to eat the food so that before everybody else can enjoy the food. So who is your leader? And the birds looked around and everybody, their eyes fell on the turtle. "What, what's the, your leader, uh, called?" And they say And he put up his hand, the treasurer put up his hand and said, uh, "It's me."

[00:31:52] Kwanza Msingwana: I said, "Okay. Well, what, what is your name?" And he looked around and he said, [00:32:00] "My name is all of you." So he says, "Okay. All right. So all of you, um, should have the first plate, the first piece of the food." And so the birds were getting excited and jockeying for place. And the tortoise said, "Uh, excuse me." I'm sure everybody heard what the chief said, that All Of You should be the first one to have the meal.

[00:32:36] Kwanza Msingwana: And so the birds retreated, they pulled back, and all sat down. And he got up, and he flexed his- himself a little bit.

[00:32:49] Kwanza Msingwana: And he sat at the table. He took a piece of something, he ate, and he's like, "Oh, this is... These fruits are looking good." [00:33:00] He had a piece of fruit here, he had a piece of meat, of chicken there. And so he went around all the table picking things and trying them out and eating and throwing bones here and there.

[00:33:12] Kwanza Msingwana: And the birds are looking at this, they're like, "Wait a minute. What? What is happening here? So because his name is All Of You, he's having all the food? What a- what about the rest of us? Does it mean we have to eat these bones that he's throwing to the cuss- to the side?" No, no, no, no. They were not happy. And some of them started flapping their wings around and stood up and they started going away.

[00:33:47] Kwanza Msingwana: S- little by little, each one was going in different way. And very soon, all the birds were gone And of course, the [00:34:00] hosts thought, "Okay Maybe this is the strange way people from, and creatures from the underworld who live below the sky, they behave this way. After they eat, some people get angry or whatever the issue might be, and they go.

[00:34:22] Kwanza Msingwana: So they were all leaving and going But pretty soon, um, the, the tortoise was looking around and over there in the corner was a (Kwanza is making bird sounds)

[00:34:40] Kwanza Msingwana: Was the crow. Was the crow picking at some, some of the bones and leftovers. And, um, the turtle looked down below and he said, "What do I do now?" Because all the birds when they [00:35:00] left, they came and plucked their feathers and took them and left. So he's left there without any feathers to fly back, back to, um, to Earth.

[00:35:13] Kwanza Msingwana: So seeing the crow still hovering around, you know, picking some leftovers and morsels of food and stuff, he said, uh, "Excuse me. Do, do you, do you mind?" Um, 'cause he, when he could see, he looked and he could see, he could tell where his house was, and he saw some movements. So he said, "Please, when you go down, when you fly down to Earth, go to my o- to my house and tell my wife to bring out all the nice and soft things from the house.

[00:35:53] Kwanza Msingwana: Put them in front of the house so that I can jump [00:36:00] and land on these cushy things that will break my fall so I stay intact and nothing happens to me, to my body." And the crow said, "Okay. Got, consider it done," and he took off. (more bird sounds) 

[00:36:20] Kwanza Msingwana: And he left and flew down to her. After a while, um, the, the tortoise was waiting and watching again. And pretty soon he thought, "Oh, I see some movement. I can see my wife and children taking things. I think that's them taking things out of the house." But what happened was that when the, when the crow flew to, to Tortoise's house, on the way, he forgot.

[00:36:57] Kwanza Msingwana: He was like, "Oh, by the way, I have, [00:37:00] uh, I had a message the, the turtle gave me. Um, ah,

[00:37:10] Kwanza Msingwana: I know." So when he got to the house, he said to the wife, um, "Your wife, your, your husband says he's gonna be coming down soon, but he wants you to take all the things that's to be, that needs to be cleaned out of the house. Um, take them out because, you know, spring clean- cleaning, uh, just coming up." "Okay." And she said, "Oh, thank you.

[00:37:42] Kwanza Msingwana: Thank you very much." And that's when she started taking all these things out. Uh, gardening implements, and cupboards, and chairs, and all things, removing them from the house and putting them in front of the house. But the tortoise, because he was so high, [00:38:00] he just saw movement and people coming and going, and going out, and he could see things are piling up in front of his house.

[00:38:08] Kwanza Msingwana: When the time came, he thought, "You know what? I think that's long enough, and that looks like there's, there are enough things out there. So if I jump now and I land on those, uh, cushions and mattresses and soft things, I should be okay." Close his eyes and counted, "One, two, three, jump," and he took off. As he was flying down, hurtling down to Earth, soon he could actually see that, wait a minute, those are not cush-, uh, mattresses and cushions from couches, and, "Ah, there are things that are very hard and uncomfortable," cupboards, chairs, um, [00:39:00] some gardening instruments, mortar and pestle.

[00:39:04] Kwanza Msingwana: But he couldn't break his fall, and so pretty soon he was crash, fall, pow, crack, break. And luckily for him, he was lying there devastated, but he couldn't do anything. He was injured so badly. His shell, which was so, so beautiful, which w- which looked even more beautiful when the birds had stuck their feathers on it to help, to help the tortoise come, come up to the skies with them, was all broken in pieces.

[00:39:41] Kwanza Msingwana: So, in a panic and scared, the wife called the children and said, "Hey, can you please run over to the, to the, to the healer, to the traditional healer, to the, the diviner to come and, and treat my husband?" And so when the [00:40:00] diviner came, he asked... He came with some bushes, he came with some leaves and some barks from the tree, and he pounded all the mixture, all these things that he brought with him, pounded it together and created medicine that he joined together and, and rubbed it together, and rubbed it on the turtle, on the shell, to help him heal.

[00:40:25] Kwanza Msingwana: In a few days, um, the turtle was healed. The shell came back together, but it not, not, did not look like how it looked like originally. It was now small, little pieces put together. So it looked like an artist was working with clay and, you know, m- m- um, mending and banding it together. It didn't look as [00:41:00] beautiful as it, as it used to be.

[00:41:03] Kwanza Msingwana: But at the same time, the wife was thankful that, "Oh, my husband is back together. The shell is still there, and I don't care if he doesn't look. I just love him all the same. I don't care it does- if he doesn't look as beautiful as he used to." And since that day up to now, the tortoise and turtles have looked the way they look And since that time, the turtles and the tortoise gained so much wisdom, that's why they're considered.

[00:41:40] Kwanza Msingwana: In Ghana, um, uh, they are thought of, like the same way they think of Anansi as a wise spiderman. But in East Africa especially, in Southern Africa, the turtle is the, um, the [00:42:00] wise one. Really the trickster, because they're always playing tricks to get his way. That is the end of my story.

[00:42:11] Ellington Brown: I have to say the story was absolutely intriguing. I was glued wondering... At one point I was getting ready to say, "Would you hurry up? I need to sit- hear the ending." I'm like But it was very, very good, and I really- Thank you ... uh, appreciated, uh, the unique, uh, gem that you've, uh, given us. So music and storytelling, uh, is a part of many cultures, as we well know.

[00:42:48] Ellington Brown: How do you think storytelling, telling connects communities and generations? 

[00:42:59] Kwanza Msingwana: Well, [00:43:00] for one, um

[00:43:05] Kwanza Msingwana: Really stories are what, especially in, up even now, in traditional societies, that's how people learn le- lessons about life. Um, we learn about living together. What happens if you don't live in harmony with each other. And when you are nice, nice things will happen to you. When you treat people good, good things will happen to you.

[00:43:36] Kwanza Msingwana: You will be treated nice as well. On the other hand, if you do the opposite, you treat people negatively or badly, bad things will happen to you. And the key is to keep families and communities together instead of creating war and, um, disharmony amongst each, each other. Like as with the [00:44:00] story of, uh, all of you, the turtle using tricks in order to be able to join with the birds to go up to the skies and have this big feast and enjoy himself.

[00:44:15] Kwanza Msingwana: But because he used tricks, because he lied to them, and he tricked them into giving him the nickname that the people and, uh, the beings in the sky thought, "Oh, his nickname is All of You." So when he, they called the name All of You, the birds thought, "Oh, that means all of us." But then the turtle, um, and the tortoise reminded them, "Wait, wait, wait a minute.

[00:44:44] Kwanza Msingwana: Who is all of you amongst all of us, amongst us? Is me. I am all of you. So sit back and let me do my, my thing about, uh, being a leader. You know, my leadership and guide you through this [00:45:00] process." And he ends up creating good food. So result is that he ends up falling down to earth and breaks his shell, almost dies.

[00:45:13] Kwanza Msingwana: And this is true of life, because if we use, we live by, for instance, the saying about living by the sword. You know, if you live by the sword, you will die by the sword. If you tell lies, those lies will catch you. You know, they will catch up to you. And especially knowing that when you tell one lie, you have to tell another lie to protect the first lie, and it g- it goes on and on, instead of changing your ways and being positive.

[00:45:46] Kwanza Msingwana: And I think, for me, I've seen the same thing, lots of the music that I grew up hearing all across Africa. They had to do with good, doing good [00:46:00] things, doing good, uh, good deeds. There's a, there's a, there's a metaphor, a puzzle that asks... And I've heard, uh, a version, a more recent version. You know, you have two people here.

[00:46:19] Kwanza Msingwana: No, three people. You have your father, you have your father... I mean, your mother, sorry, and a child and they are traveling on a canoe. The canoe capsizes Who are you going to save of those three people? Which one are you going to save? And this is a very common question that's been asked all across the Africa in various ways.

[00:46:53] Kwanza Msingwana: Again, it's a lesson, gives us reason to think and think deeply about issues, you know, [00:47:00] so that we can decide. Now, you transfer that into a song. You sing that song. Songs are entertaining. They travel far, far away, 'cause when you speak, there's only so many people hears you, but when you sing and you travel, with the singing, it, it sees, and it meets, and it reaches many ears, and the people learn their lessons.

[00:47:29] Kwanza Msingwana: So that connection is very important. And again, in traditional cultures, there's not much of a distance between storytelling, poetry, and

[00:47:45] Kwanza Msingwana: songwriting. 

[00:47:45] Rita Burke: So, Kwanza, you are a poet, you are an author, you're a storyteller, you're an educator. So could you share with us a [00:48:00] time when you had to say enough?

[00:48:11] Rita Burke: Could you remember a time where you had to say enough, whether it's personal, professional? Could you share that with us, please? 

[00:48:13] Kwanza Msingwana: Um, one of the, the biggest examples or the examples that I can think of, uh, right quick is that, uh, the situation that was the, um, w- what happened at the, uh, park school, Nelson Mandela Park school now.

[00:48:32] Kwanza Msingwana: The outgoing, uh, principal, who was soon retiring, ended up organizing the, um, the visit for Nelson Mandela to the school because the school was gonna be renamed. And, uh, the principal that had actually, uh, who was, um, instrumental in getting the whole process started was moving, was [00:49:00] retiring. And so the new principal I think wanted to create a legacy for herself, bringing Nelson Mandela, a person of such highly, um, such esteem and highly respected around the world, of course, is a good legacy for her.

[00:49:25] Kwanza Msingwana: So she was organizing this thing, but the way she was organizing it, to me, did not sound correct, was not correct. Because one of the things that was gonna happen for the... during the, um, this, the ceremony of, uh, Ne- Nelson Mandela, President Nelson Mandela renaming the school, there was gonna be a choir and some entertainment, other entertainment, but the choir was definitely there.

[00:49:57] Kwanza Msingwana: A number of students who [00:50:00] used to sing in the school, they started preparing about three months ahead of time. Now, my friend that, Rita, you, you met, Kenneth, uh, Slater, he's been working in Regent Park for a very long time. And because of him, I've been involved with that community for very, very long time, since 1988.

[00:50:26] Kwanza Msingwana: And so I have seen many of the changes that have come and go around the area. And, um, he used to run a program, a youth program, um, a drumming... it was called Drum Talk, working with students from that school. And what he would do, he was, he would select those students that were considered difficult by their teachers, and they would do the drumming.

[00:50:56] Kwanza Msingwana: And, um, so it was a [00:51:00] weekly program. Once a week, they will meet after school and do some drumming, and so on. So when the Nelson Mandela, um, visit was coming, they started organizing for it, like, six months in advance. Three months before the day of, they started... They, they had to... They put together this, the choir, this, of students singing, and selected the students who will speak.

[00:51:34] Kwanza Msingwana: So all these activities, the s- the different activities that were happening, were going on Kenneth, my friend Kenneth went to the, to the principal and said, "You know

[00:51:53] Kwanza Msingwana: I know we are going to be having, we'll have a choir and the students from the school singing. But I [00:52:00] know for sure, Mr. Mandela, being from South Africa, and he's Xhosa, he loves his music. He loves his drums. And, um, it would be nice if the students played drums for the, for him on that day. And the prin- "Oh, hey, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:52:24] Kwanza Msingwana: Drums? Oh, my goodness. For one thing, he has an, he has hearing problem. He uses a hearing aid. So with drums being loud and, oof, goodness me, no, that's not gonna work because it's gonna be too loud." "Okay." So he left it alone and knew, knowing that it was not gonna happen. About 10 days to go before the, the event, the appointed day, she comes up back to him, "Oh, my [00:53:00] goodness.

[00:53:00] Kwanza Msingwana: Can you please put together a drumming group? Because the students are saying, 'Hey, if there are no drums, we're not going to be there. We are not coming.'" Now, imagine a, a whole, uh, a gym that takes about 300 people Um, Mr. Mandela comes and all the students, or most of the students, they say, "We're not having anything to do with this," and they don't show up.

[00:53:36] Kwanza Msingwana: Oh my goodness, that's gonna be so embarrassing. What to do? They said, "If we don't have drums here, we are not coming." So, in a panic, she comes back to Kenneths and said, "Please, can you put together a drumming thing happening, to happen that day?" And he said, "Well, you know, I play [00:54:00] drums, and I know I've been working with the students, but I'm not a professional drummer.

[00:54:07] Kwanza Msingwana: So, um, you have to find someone who's a professional, who can put together something, a drumming program, in less than one week to go before the event." "Well, do you know anybody?" And she said, "Well, my friend Kwanzaa." So he suggested and gave them my name and said, "Call him, talk to him. He can make it happen."

[00:54:37] Kwanza Msingwana: So she called me and said, "You know, this is the situation. We would like you to come and do some drums and play, you know, with the... to show these, the students something that they can play for Mr. Mandela." Okay. So initially I said yes, but then I went ahead and had some [00:55:00] conversations with the teachers there at the school, and a couple of them, um, that I knew well, they were like, "Oh my goodness, this is crazy."

[00:55:11] Kwanza Msingwana: You know what they were, they were planning to do? They were planning, first of all, "We're going to bus in students from Rosedale because these, these, uh, these boys and girls from Regent Park, they have never seen or experienced what it is like being in the presence of somebody in the stature of Nelson Mandela.

[00:55:39] Kwanza Msingwana: But for them, you know, they meet presidents and CEOs of companies and sometimes politicians from other countries and dignitaries. They will know how to behave before if they have a guest like that. So we're gonna bus in the students from other communities to come here and [00:56:00] represent the community." When I heard that story, I said, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:56:05] Kwanza Msingwana: I am done." You know, I've been doing this long enough. I've seen and experienced how, um, students, you know, who look like the students at Regent Park, they are being treated. It is not right. I mean, how are you going to bus in students when you have students right here? Rather, you, you bring somebody from another community to come and fill the space, whereas the people who live here...

[00:56:31] Kwanza Msingwana: And especially when you think about what it means, what it will mean to the students and the parents and members of the community to be in the presence of President Nelson Mandela.

[00:56:46] Kwanza Msingwana: Uh, I went back to the principal and I said, "Nope, sorry. I'm not gonna do it." I, no, I, I'm not going to do it. So a day went by. [00:57:00] The following, maybe two days later, of course time is shorter now, I got a phone call from the superintendent, the superintendent for the TD- TDSB superintendent for the South District.

[00:57:15] Kwanza Msingwana: It was... It's funny how the phone came because it was somebody, I didn't recognize the voice, and it was, like, maybe quarter to 11:00, um, at night. He calls me and asks for, to speak to Kwanzaa, and I said, "Who is this?" He said, "Oh, my name is David. I'm the assistant to the, um, superintend- rentendant, and she wanted to talk to you because we really want you..."

[00:57:42] Kwanza Msingwana: A- and she came on the phone. So I'm thinking, "It's almost 11:00 o'clock at night. What's happening?" And of course, "Oh, we were work- I was working late, and so I thought I'd give you a call because we would really love for you to [00:58:00] do this program with it." And I said, "No, I'm, I'm not going to do that program." "Why not?

[00:58:07] Kwanza Msingwana: Because, you know, think about it, because it's going to be an internationally recorded event. It will be televised all over Canada." I said, "I don't care about that. What I care about is the people, those students at, at, at Mandela Park, and their parents and the community," because I am thinking- I know how I felt when I was in his presence and how people who have come before him or were in his presence felt.

[00:58:41] Kwanza Msingwana: What does it mean to them to be in such a, uh, a person who is being so elevated and what it would mean to them in their lives that I've been in, in this man's presence. No, I'm not going to do it. And so... And I [00:59:00] had, uh, two of my, or two, two of my friends with me so that, uh... Oh, no, that was after. So then I said, "Okay."

[00:59:11] Kwanza Msingwana: She asked, "Can we please have a meeting? Can, uh, can I meet with you and, you know, tomorrow bring the principal and we can talk about this?" And so I said, "Okay, I'm gonna bring my friends that, uh, I would also like them to be part of this conversation." And so when we met the following day, they made all kinds of promises.

[00:59:34] Kwanza Msingwana: Um, one of those promises was like, no, not promise, but request, like, "Can you please, um, can we put this thing under the rug so we can, until after we finish the event, then we can talk about it?" I said, "No, I am not gonna put it under the rug," because it has happened [01:00:00] enough times where the promise of glory, of, uh, or, you know, fame, whether money or some other way, makes people, um, put their principles to the side in order to make this thing happen.

[01:00:16] Kwanza Msingwana: But once the event has gone on and has been successful, people don't remember and go back and say, "Okay, let's have that conversation that we promised you we were going to have." So they made promises and said, "All of you, and I guarantee to you all, please, please, please, we will make sure that we have people there."

[01:00:38] Kwanza Msingwana: Because I did ask, "So if you're saying..." I asked, "Who is gonna be in the gym, um, when the presentation is happening?" They say, "Oh, you know, there, there are going to be, like, over 300, uh, p- media people there, uh, you know, television [01:01:00] and reporters from everywhere. We will not have enough space, so some of the students will not be in the gym.

[01:01:08] Kwanza Msingwana: Only a few will be allowed to be there." And I said, "That doesn't make any sense to me. What about if there's, um, um, overflow, um, there's space for the overflow audience at the community center," which was where, um- It's not, it's, the, that community center at the time is no longer there. The new space is right, the new community center is right next to the school, which would have been much better.

[01:01:37] Kwanza Msingwana: But I asked that question and they said, "No, there will be no overflow space to take more students." 

[01:01:45] Kwanza Msingwana: Mm-hmm. 

[01:01:46] Kwanza Msingwana: And I said, "Yeah, for sure I'm not gonna do it." Because if the community is not going to be there to celebrate the presence of Nelson Mandela in their community, what do you, what are we even talking about?

[01:01:58] Kwanza Msingwana: And so finally they said, "You know [01:02:00] what? We'll see what we can do. We're gonna try and do and ask the se- security detail to help, you know, manage the, uh, students and the people that will be there. But only students and their parents will be allowed in the gym. Other people and some of the parents also won't be able to come into the hall."

[01:02:20] Kwanza Msingwana: So that was at that time, you know, that, that I can recall, that was one of the biggest moments where I said whether, uh, money is involved, whether fame is involved, because... And again, notice they pushed the aspect of, "You will be on television." 

[01:02:40] Ellington Brown: Right. "

[01:02:40] Kwanza Msingwana: You will be known everywhere." I said, "It doesn't matter to me.

[01:02:43] Kwanza Msingwana: What is important is these young people, they get to share some time with Nelson Mandela and their school and their, the staff at the school, and what that memory will mean to them. That's what's important. Not the [01:03:00] fame." 

[01:03:02] Elton Brown: You are such the storyteller. Thank you. I could listen to you f- f- day in and day out, one story from another.

[01:03:11] Elton Brown: And I know, uh, Rita feels the same thing, way, because I know Rita, she loves being read to, so you're giving your stories, only are, uh, feeding her, as she puts it. And that's, and I'm putting that in, in quotes. Yes, indeed. But it's a very, uh, positive thing. Uh, I wish I could stay with you for another two hours, but unfortunately I have another, uh, meeting I have to go to.

[01:03:39] Elton Brown: But, uh, I am so happy that we got a chance to, uh, talk to you and to grab hold a few of your stories. I'm sure you have thousands of them. Uh, Rita, do you have anything that you want to add? 

[01:03:55] Rita Burke: Except to say, Kwanza, nothing happens [01:04:00] before its time. Yes. And I'm certainly glad that you were able to join us on SpeakUP! International to share how you have contributed in a very special way to our community.

[01:04:16] Rita Burke: Uh, based on what I've known and based on your story, you've done nothing but elevate our community and enrich our community. And so I thank you very much for everything that you've done, and for being with us. 

[01:04:29] Kwanza Msingwana: Thank you. Appreciate it very much. Thank you for the invitation, and keep doing the good work.

[01:04:34] Kwanza Msingwana: These stories have to be heard. People who are artists and other leaders in the community have to be exposed. They need the exposure, and people know they have to get to know that there are people like them who exist within, you know, amongst their, them in the community, and that's always a helpful thing.

[01:04:56] Kwanza Msingwana: Thank [01:05:00] you!

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