[00:00:10] Music: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

[00:00:15] Rita Burke: Nana Dei is a globally celebrated professor at OISE, University of Toronto. He's known for his advocacy work in Black African Canadian education. In 2007, Professor Dei was installed as a traditional chief in Ghana, and with this honour, Nana Dei gets a stool name. For our discussion today, he prefers to be called Nana.

[00:00:52] Rita Burke: And on SpeakUP! International, we seek to inform, inspire, and educate. I have [00:01:00] no doubt that Nana Dei's story will meet those objectives. Glad to have you with us today, Professor Nana Dei. Glad to have you with us. 

[00:01:13] Nana Dei: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. 

[00:01:18] Ellington Brown: It is an honour to have such a scholar, with us this morning How do you, your studies in anti-racism, Black youth education, African, social and anti-colonial, how does all of that come together, and how do you use that to promote, DEI?

[00:01:48] Nana Dei: Yeah. Okay. First, first of all, um, let, let me recognize the, the, the land and the space in which we are. And that's, and that's because, um, uh, I think it's in Mozambique, right? [00:02:00] Uh, but I think in other places, right, we teach students that every classroom is a space that people had to fight to liberate, right?

[00:02:10] Nana Dei: So we talk about the land in which we are and how we, we had to fight whether to keep our land or to liberate, uh, ourselves from the land. So it's very important. But also, uh, I think to give a shout to the ancestors, uh, uh, uh, African ancestors, uh, because I think they are those who give us the spiritual strength and the backbone to do what we do.

[00:02:32] Nana Dei: And so in the late, in the words of the late Maya Angelou, right, uh, I come to this podcast bearing the fruits of knowledge which have been given to me by my elders and my ancestors. So I just want to recognize that. Uh, and, and thanks for h- for having me. So, uh, to, um, to answer your question, I think, uh, to me, one of the things I have realized over the years that these things are connected, [00:03:00] right?

[00:03:00] Nana Dei: Questions of anti-racism, anti-colonial thought, right? Indigeneity, and in this case, speaking about African and Black indigeneities, are all connected in making us whole because we are dealing with questions about knowledge, we are dealing with questions about history, we are dealing with questions about, uh, how we fight, resist, and how we reclaim our humanity.

[00:03:26] Nana Dei: So for me, all these things flick together, right? Uh, you cannot be a Black scholar, you cannot be a Black educator without being a resister because our ancestors We're resistors. We are here because of the resistance of our ancestors, and this is why it's so important for us, and I teach my students that, that when we get into certain spaces, we cannot just simply assume we got there because we are too smart.

[00:03:57] Nana Dei: That's why we got there. Of course, we know we are smart. [00:04:00] That's not the point. The point is that there has been traditionally some gatekeeping processes that have kept some of us out of the door, and we are still fighting to break those walls down. So when we get into those spaces, we need to remember that history of resistance that got us to where we are, and continue the struggle to open the doors for others also to come through.

[00:04:26] Nana Dei: And this is why you connect, right? You can't talk about our resistance... W- what does Blackness mean? Blackness sure is a conceptual construction, right? It's a concept, but it's also political. It's also an awareness, right, of who one is. It's about identity, right? And it's very important to bring some consciousness to that identity.

[00:04:50] Nana Dei: One of those consciousnesses is also to see that we cannot talk about these issues without talking about anti-Blackness, without talking about racism, [00:05:00] without talking about how racism intersects with other forms of oppression, whether it's gender, sexual, disability, class. And so you see these issues connect, and I think when we speak about that, we are also decolonizing.

[00:05:19] Nana Dei: And decolonization is not just about the land. The land is very important, but it's also about the mind

[00:05:30] Nana Dei: To come to that critical consciousness that the mind is so important also, because the mind allows us to ask certain questions about our absences, omiggins, omissions, and negations, the devaluation, the dehumanization of our existence. And that's why that critical consciousness, right, that we talk about.

[00:05:56] Nana Dei: Fanon talks about coming to that consciousness. [00:06:00] Ngugi wa Thiong'o talks about decolonization as decolonizing the mind. Grimmark talks about unchaining our minds. And it's very important for us to connect these issues, and we can only connect these issues if we understand where we're coming from, where we are now, and how we are going forward.

[00:06:24] Nana Dei: That is, to me, is talking about the totality of our lived experiences as Black and African peoples. We reclaim our history, we reflect on our present circumstances, and we project onto the future. That, to me, is speaking about the totality of the African lived experiences. And lastly, and this is very important, right?

[00:06:53] Nana Dei: And it's very, very important that, I think I said people, we critique the present [00:07:00] and use that knowledge to think about the possibilities of a new future. So it's not enough to just simply to critique, but to create the awareness, to use the awareness to think about how we find solutions to our current problems and be able to project a new future.

[00:07:29] Nana Dei: Because our struggle is about knowing our past, understanding our present, and working towards a new future. That is our story, and that is our struggle. 

[00:07:42] Rita Burke: Well, Nana Dei, I feel as if I'm at an educational conference, and you are the keynote speaker. Thank you. And I can continue listening to you. And you have referenced so very, so many very important point in this short stint that [00:08:00] it's going to be truly, truly fascinating.

[00:08:03] Rita Burke: You talked about Ngugi, and you talked about Fanon, and you talked about something that Garvey said many years ago about taking the kinks out of our mind- 

[00:08:15] Music: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:08:15] Rita Burke: and not out of our fear. 

[00:08:17] Music: Yeah. 

[00:08:17] Rita Burke: And, you know, that's profound, and you, you captured it beautifully. So I wanna go back to a question that what it is that led you in the direction of education?

[00:08:29] Nana Dei: Yeah. I, I think to me, education is about everything we do, right? Uh, uh, I mean, there are colleagues who talk about it's about the w- the ways, the options, and strategies through which we come to understand our world and act within that world to bring about change, right? So I'll answer your question in two ways.

[00:08:49] Nana Dei: One is to me, uh... Look, y- I know when growing up my, my... I was told, my mom and my dad always say, "You are going to be a professor one day." Because they said I like [00:09:00] to, to speak, I like to talk, right? And, and it's true. Asking my students, I remember some of my students at University of Toronto said, "Oh, uh, George..."

[00:09:08] Nana Dei: That time I was in Nana, right? They will say, "George never saw a microphone he didn't like," right? If, if he saw the microphone, he was going to speak to it. So to me, uh, there's a passion, right? Because I have... I, I'm very, very passionate about the things I feel, I feel strongly. And that to me is, uh, you cannot be educator without being passionate.

[00:09:29] Nana Dei: You must feel, you must love the work that you do, right? So I came to these things through the, my upbringing, that to me is very important for us to understand ourselves, to understand our communities, and to understand our world in order to bring the change. That is very, very important, right? And so with, with, with that upbringing, when I started my, my, my, my schooling, right, these were questions that I was thinking about.

[00:09:58] Nana Dei: Just to give you a, a, a [00:10:00] bit of history too onto this, right? Listen, I, I went to high school Uh, in Ghana called Ghana National College. This was a college that was established by our late president, anti-colonial President Kwame Nkrumah, and he used part of his own funds to establish the school because some of the students who protested colonial rule Were dismissed from school, and he wanted to create a space for them to get their education.

[00:10:39] Nana Dei: So the history of that school, when you go into that school, you are told about that history. How can you get into that school and not think about the importance of resistance? Because you are in a space where people who resisted and who were punished were given a second [00:11:00] chance at education. So you must be privileged.

[00:11:03] Nana Dei: You must be blessed. You must have the wisdom and the knowledge Of that space and let it guide you in your work. And so all these things, to me, go together in terms of coming to ed- ed- education. And when it comes to education, the other part is about questions of schooling itself. The question of schooling, right?

[00:11:27] Nana Dei: Uh, my initial work was on development studies. But I realized that, for example, right, uh, having lived in Canada, right, um, y- the way what happens, say, in Africa, and how Black peoples, African peoples, say, in the diaspora, are treated are connected. When they see images on TV about so-called starving babies, that Africa is helpless, it can't get its act together, [00:12:00] it relates to how they treat our kinsfolk here.

[00:12:05] Nana Dei: And it's very important then that we l- lift up our young learners in the school system to be proud of their identity as African peoples, to be proud of who they are, to recognize that history, and to stay strong, to stand with their head on their shoulders. It's very important, and this is why, to me, it leads to me then to connect education with schooling, because schooling is so important, right?

[00:12:37] Nana Dei: And it cannot be left in the hands of simply educators. Because where I came from, where I grew up, your mother, your father, your uncle, your nephew, the wider community, were all educators. It wasn't just the teachers, right? Sometimes you got the greatest punishment, not from your mother, not from your [00:13:00] father, not from your teacher- Yes

[00:13:02] Nana Dei: but a neighbor. 

[00:13:03] Rita Burke: From somebody in the community. From somebody 

[00:13:04] Nana Dei: in the community. 

[00:13:05] Rita Burke: Yes. 

[00:13:08] Ellington Brown: I know how passionate you are about, education and the importance of making sure that everyone

[00:13:22] Ellington Brown: , has the same footing when it comes to being educated. If they wanna be a teacher or they wanna be, you know, an electrician, whatever it is that they, where their passion lies, they should have the opportunity to do that.

[00:13:37] Ellington Brown: And I want you to talk about a notable award that you received, which was the Whitworth Award for Career Research and Education. Can you talk a little bit about that, please? 

[00:13:52] Nana Dei: Yeah. I, I, I think the Whitworth is given to the Canadian educator who has made some impact [00:14:00] on Canadian educational policy, right?

[00:14:04] Nana Dei: So, um, to me to recognize that at least my work, right? And when I talk about recognizing work, it's not just simply my work. I think it's, I'm stand on the shoulders of the community. I stand on the work that I did with my students, so it's a collective lesson. But, uh, I, I think so to me, that is a recognition that at least we are doing something that is worth recognizing.

[00:14:28] Nana Dei: And, and that's very encouraging, right? That's very encouraging because I think as an educator, uh, we need to make an impact, right? We need to make an impact, not only on our learners, but on the communities, because education, as I said, is about everything that we do, how we come to understand, how we come to work for change, and how we come to promote new futures.

[00:14:54] Nana Dei: Because sometimes what happens is that others want to design futures for some, [00:15:00] and we have to have the power to design our own futures, and we can do this through education. So the w- the extent to which my work, which is a collective work with assistance from others, is being recognized with an award, that it has made an impact.

[00:15:19] Nana Dei: That is, that to me is very rewarding and I'm very, very proud of it, right? And I thank the ancestors, uh, for it. One of the things you said earlier, one, was about every child to receive education. Yes, everybody must have education, but what type of education are we talking about? And what are you going to do with that education?

[00:15:41] Nana Dei: Those are the critical questions, right? It's very important for us to talk about critical education, education that makes us conscious, an awareness of who we are and how we work to bring about change, how we work to promote our communities, right? [00:16:00] Unfortunately, what is happening now is that sometimes rather than education becoming a right, it's becoming a privilege because of the high cost of education.

[00:16:11] Nana Dei: And then we need to be concerned about that. Education should be a right. It should not be a privilege. Where some who can afford it only get it. We all deserve to get it 

[00:16:24] Rita Burke: Nana Dei, you made a statement in response to Elton's question, and that is how we work to promote our communities. And on SpeakUP! International, we interview people we call, we label community builders, and that is absolutely critical.

[00:16:44] Rita Burke: We, we, we, we handpick the people that we chat with on SpeakUP! International because they are commu- they, they are definitely doing work that promotes our community, and I appreciate what you're doing. [00:17:00] Now, you're known as one of Canada's foremost scholars on race and racism. Please tell our audience what you did to get this title.

[00:17:12] Rita Burke: And that's a tongue in cheek question because I know what you've done. 

[00:17:15] Nana Dei: Right. No, I, I, I think it speak, it speaks to the earlier question that Elton was asking. I think, um, when people read your work and people continue to cite your work, right? And people know what you're doing around questions of race, anti-racism, African indigeneity, and that you are one of those key theorists, key educators in the area, right?

[00:17:39] Nana Dei: It stands to reason that at some point people would say, you know, you cannot talk about these issues without mentioning at least one of these as among other names, right? And so this is how to me is very important, uh, in that. But I want to g- come back to where you started your question from, which is the issue about community, right?

[00:17:59] Nana Dei: [00:18:00] Sometimes there's a feeling That communities are given to us. No, we build communities. We don't pluck communities from the sky. We build them one brick at a time, and this is why we have to create communities in the plural, right? You know, you know the saying, there's a saying that it takes a village to raise a child.

[00:18:28] Nana Dei: That African saying. Many people say it, but I don't think they understand what it means. Of course, it takes a village to raise a child. We all know that. But you must have that village in the first place. You must create it. If you don't create that village, you're not going to raise a child, right? And this is why we have to think of our communities, how our histories are connected and intersected, right?

[00:18:57] Nana Dei: When we talk of the Black community, for [00:19:00] example, we are not homogeneous, we are heterogeneous, but we are connected. We have histories that are shared, and these histories are shared. It doesn't mean they are similar histories, but they are shared. They are shared across lands, spaces. Just as we talk about Black and indigenous so- relationship, right?

[00:19:21] Nana Dei: We have histories of colonialism. We have histories where for some, their lands were dispossessed, others they were taken away from their land. This is about connection. We are connected, right? So we have to talk about those connections. It's about how these histories are connected and how we build histories.

[00:19:43] Nana Dei: We build communities that strengthen each other rather than pull each other down, in that sense 

[00:19:51] Music: You know, you talked about there were some words that you used, and you've used them more than once, and one was [00:20:00] encouraging and the other is feelings. And I think that kind of all equates to passion and how this passion is given to other people in our, in our community.

[00:20:16] Music: And I do agree with you. You know, community is a, more of a concept. It's not something that, okay, you have all of these people that live in this one area, so that's a community. No, that is not. A community, it's, it's knit through these feelings and encouragement, which I know of, I know well because if I did something outside and one of the parents didn't like it, they'd beat my behind and then send me home.

[00:20:47] Music: And then when I got home, I didn't wanna tell my mother because I knew I was gonna get another, a- another whipping. That to me is community, because if everybody is taking [00:21:00] part in molding the, the upcoming, generation Can you explain the significance of your role as director for the Center of Integrated Anti-Racism, Anti-Racism Studies in, at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education?

[00:21:22] Nana Dei: Yeah. Um, to, uh, about this, to come back to that question, I just want to highlight a point that me- because it's very, uh, important, right? Um, look, growing up in, in Ghana, and I think many African cultures, and I'm sure in the Caribbean and in the diaspora, one is taught about the importance of community. It doesn't mean the individual is not important.

[00:21:50] Nana Dei: The individual is important in so far as he or she is linked with the community that they are part of. And this [00:22:00] is why as an educator, because our communities hold us, they have our back, we cannot put them under the bus. We always have to know our responsibilities to the communities, because at the end of the day, when we get into trouble, when we have to face the, the, the issues that we face, it's the communities that are going to be there to support us.

[00:22:26] Nana Dei: So we must never forget that, right? Now, to the question about the Center for Integrative Anti-Racism Studies, right? This was a center that was formed, uh, decades ago, uh, and, and three of us, uh, myself, a colleague, Sharine Razack, and the late Roxana Ng, were at the forefront of getting that center. We were more concerned about the question of how schools take up race, racism, right?

[00:22:53] Nana Dei: That we need a space, we need a center, that to be a mouthpiece to speak. Of course, there are professors who [00:23:00] speak on that, but it's also very important, important to have a center that allows students, communities- And researchers to work together to promote questions of racism and how racism intersects with other forms of difference and oppression, right?

[00:23:17] Nana Dei: So it's a center that I lead, but I work with students and other faculty, right? And, and the directorship means you offer the leadership, right? There are others who have also been past directors, but you offer leadership and work with others. My conception of a leader is that a leader should be able to take initiatives, but a leader must also learn to follow, right?

[00:23:42] Nana Dei: You take the initiative, but you also learn to follow because the others you are working with also have something in their head. They have some knowledge, and not everything resides in you. You know the baobab tree. The baobab tree. It's so huge, your arm alone cannot [00:24:00] embrace it. You have to hold others to embrace it, right?

[00:24:05] Nana Dei: So that's my conception of leadership. You take initiatives, but you also work with others and learn and follow from them. So this is a center that is at the forefront dealing with questions of race, anti-racism, anti-Blackness, right? But we'll also talk about questions of other oppressions, and also talk about questions of Indigeneity, right?

[00:24:28] Nana Dei: That there's a need to talk about ... To me, Blackness and Black is also Indigenous and Indigeneity. The two are not separate. They are always intertwined. Because I talk about Indigeneity in the sense that, look, we do have African Indigenous, right? 1492 is not the beginning of the Black experience. The Black experience didn't start with 1492.

[00:24:59] Nana Dei: [00:25:00] Right? We have to go back to African indigeneity. And there is an African indigenous conception of Blackness which is outside of the white dominant construction of whiteness, which is seen as a counterpoint. No. If we look in African indigenous lexicon, Blackness stands for so many things. It stands for courage, it stands for red, it stands for resistance, and so forth.

[00:25:26] Nana Dei: It was never associated with issues of criminality- 

[00:25:29] Rita Burke: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:25:31] Nana Dei: deviancy. 

[00:25:32] Rita Burke: Mm-hmm. It was never- Never associated with negativity. 

[00:25:35] Nana Dei: Yes, exactly. It wasn't, right? So we have to separate that from the way with, with... There's a pers- particular conception of Blackness, which is made as a counterpoint of whiteness, and that is a problem, right?

[00:25:52] Nana Dei: Yes, we must critique that. We must critique that, but we must also recognize that the Black [00:26:00] experience did not start with 1492 

[00:26:05] Rita Burke: We've got a lot of work to do, um, Nana Dei. We've got a lot of work to do It's about that And you, and you are leading the charge and we thank you for that. You're leading the charge.

[00:26:14] Rita Burke: We thank you for that. And I am glad you referenced the baobab tree because I'm in the process of writing a children's book and I'm including that in the book. So thank you, thank you. That, that, that reaffirms that I should include that in my book. 

[00:26:30] Nana Dei: Yeah. 

[00:26:30] Rita Burke: Now, you were born in Ghana But I see that your work has transcended boundaries, not only in Africa but globally.

[00:26:42] Rita Burke: Can you tell us some of your collaborative work in Africa, especially South Africa, please? 

[00:26:49] Nana Dei: Yeah. Um, you know, you cannot, you cannot be a scholar without doing, uh, research and collaborative work. And so that has taken me to other places like [00:27:00] Nigeria, of course Ghana, where I was born, and then South Africa, and also Kenya, right?

[00:27:05] Nana Dei: Uh, uh, so part of the collaborative work is not simply in these spaces helping to mentor young students, right? So you, you, you either visit... You get a visit to this place either to speak or to you will go there to do research, and you come across students. They get your contact, and they establish relationship with you, and you always communicate with them, giving them advice.

[00:27:28] Nana Dei: But also you meet faculty who want to do research work with you, who want to publish with you, right? So I have done publications with my African colleagues who are based on the continent. And because, uh, part of my work takes me to the continent, right, uh, I have publications that I've done with them of research that I, uh, ongoing.

[00:27:47] Nana Dei: I mean, one of the things that we are talking about, the baobab tree, right? It's all about our elders, right? One of the things I'm doing now is about elders and eldership, African elders and eldership. The importance of [00:28:00] elders, right? In our communities, right? And so that work, for example, took me to Ghana, to South Africa, right?

[00:28:09] Nana Dei: To do that. And so when you talk about the connection with South Africa, right, it's longstanding. I mean, I have colleagues, friends who I work with in South Africa. My work on African elders has a component dealing with South African elders, right? I've published with, with colleagues at the University of, uh, uh, uh, South Africa, right?

[00:28:29] Nana Dei: And any time that we hear that I'm being invited, there's somebody somewhere who wants me to say, "Is it, is it possible to make a, a detour on your trip so that you come and speak?" Right? And that... So this is why, uh, my connection is. And I think to me this is why, uh, the to, to receive an honorary doctorate from the University of South Africa has been a high point for me.

[00:28:52] Nana Dei: And coming from, coming from a, coming from an African university, the largest African university, [00:29:00] it's an, it's an honor. And, and, and recently to that honor was extended when I also got news that I'm going to receive another honorary doctorate from Algoma University in Ontario, right? So which means within this year I'm getting two honorary doctorates, which, which is a blessing, and I'm, I'm thankful to the ancestors and to my students and to all the people who have helped me along the way. 

[00:29:26] Ellington Brown: I think it's important that, we are recognized. It's r- because that in itself fuels individuals to ... They now know they've reached a certain level, so now- Mm ... that means now they've got to move maybe a little harder, a little faster because- Yeah ... they've been recognized at this, at this level.

[00:29:49] Ellington Brown: And so you talked about the elders and collaboration, and I think those two things kind of go together because- Yeah ... that's where you're reaching [00:30:00] to get that knowledge- 

[00:30:01] Rita Burke: Yeah ... 

[00:30:01] Music: from. So you have contributed to the retheorization and anti-colonial theory and African, how, how does the collaboration help you make those contributions?

[00:30:18] Nana Dei: Yeah. Uh, I, I think, you see, part of... We do collaboration because we, because we believe that not everything resides in our own heads, right? That we learn from others. So in collaborative work, you get ideas, just as when you're a teacher in the classroom, right? Uh, you have the, the students who come to the classroom, right, are coming from different places.

[00:30:40] Nana Dei: They come from different experiences. They come with different knowledges. So you create the space, the circle, right, that allows all these knowledges to be soaked in, and you work with it, and, and that. And you cannot be in the classroom and hear people speak about their experiences, hear s- [00:31:00] people speak about their stories, and not also be aware why it's important for us to decolonize, right?

[00:31:11] Nana Dei: So it's these interactions, the experiences, the hardships, the struggles that people go through, that informs one to think about how we create a better world, right? Nobody's perfect. Nobody's perfect. But I always talk about the humility To learn. When you come into a space and you are very arrogant, you leave that space knowing nothing because you were so arrogant, you thought you knew everything.

[00:31:45] Nana Dei: But if you are very humble, you go into that space with that humility, and when you get out of that space, you know more. So it's through that humility that has allowed me to think [00:32:00] about other ways of knowing, other ways of thinking through our existence, and to be able to speak about these issues about coloniality, anti-colonialism, decolonization.

[00:32:14] Nana Dei: Because students will speak about it, colleagues will speak about it, and then you take those ideas too, and also think through your own experiences, your own life, right? One of the challenges we face as a people is that we are not given the power to tell our stories. And this is why now we need to reclaim.

[00:32:36] Nana Dei: The challenge has always been, how do we get that power? And we have to reclaim the power to tell our own stories. To tell our own stories in our own terms, in our own knowledges And it's very important. So one of the things that I speak about, I write about, is the power of multiple or multicentric [00:33:00] knowledges, right?

[00:33:02] Nana Dei: There are multiple knowledges, and it's very important that we validate them. We allow the knowledges to contest with each other and come to a better understanding. And lastly, it's also a question about how we talk about achieving success, right? No, we, we, we will talk about success and they individualize it, right?

[00:33:26] Nana Dei: That, oh, it's all the learner, right? Success is the product of your parents, your communities, other students in the classroom, and your teachers. They are all part of contributing to success. That's why we cannot talk about success as if it's individual. It... Success is always collective, right? And then also to talk about success in a way that recognizes that you can be successful on the test course.

[00:33:58] Nana Dei: You may get A, [00:34:00] A+, but you are very lousy when it comes to community responsibility. That to me is not success. That to me is not success. Success has to transcend beyond the individual to the community, and this is a challenge for all of us, right? This is why mentorship, for example, to me, is a big thing of mine.

[00:34:26] Nana Dei: Mentorship, to mentor the young ones, because as you mentor the young ones, they also mentor you. It's a two-way process, because the young ones will also mentor you because they will speak about their experiences That you don't know because you are not experiencing it. And that to me is just mentoring.

[00:34:47] Nana Dei: They are mentoring you in that process. And very important to see it that way, that this is how- And I like what you- ... knowledge is created. It's shared- I like 

[00:34:56] Rita Burke: what- ... 

[00:34:56] Nana Dei: and accumulated. 

[00:34:58] Rita Burke: Yeah. I like what you said [00:35:00] in terms of when the students enter your space, uh, they're not coming as, as, as clean slates. 

[00:35:08] Music: Yeah.

[00:35:09] Rita Burke: They're, they're bringing experiences and knowledge, doesn't matter how old they are- 

[00:35:14] Music: Yes ... 

[00:35:14] Rita Burke: to the learning, to the learning environment. And the open-minded or humble educator could also learn from those students. 

[00:35:23] Music: Yeah. 

[00:35:23] Rita Burke: I, I like that. In particular, that sticks with me. Now, recently, Nana Dei, you were installed as a traditional chief in Ghana.

[00:35:32] Nana Dei: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:33] Rita Burke: I'm really excited about this. Please explain the significance of that ritual. 

[00:35:39] Nana Dei: Yeah, yeah. No, it's actually s- it was in 2007, right, uh, when I was installed, uh, as a traditional chief. Um, and you know, when we talk about chiefs, we talk about chiefs in the hierarchy, right? Uh, because we have, we have, we have different...

[00:35:56] Nana Dei: The, the, the paramountcy, the main chiefs, and then the [00:36:00] other sub-chiefs in there. And I was made the gyasehene, right? And, and, and, and gyasehene, uh, is, is, is a big, uh, uh, status, right? Uh, uh, and there, there's an honor that comes with it. But, uh, I think it's also related to, uh, it's within the family, the lineage, right?

[00:36:20] Nana Dei: That, uh, certain lineages have stools that are attached to them, right? And, and so when, when your uncle, uh, passes, the trans- there's a transition. But your question is more about the, the ceremony, right? The ceremony is when- Yes ... uh, you have to swear an allegiance. You swear an allegiance to the main chief, right?

[00:36:46] Nana Dei: You swear, swear allegiance that you're going to... When he, he calls you, you're going to come and serve. You're going to serve the people. You're going to be there- [00:37:00] It's for the benefit, for the interest, looking out for the community interest. That it's only when you are sick and you are incapable that you will not respond to that call.

[00:37:15] Nana Dei: And that call is about a call from the ancestors as well, right? Because the ancestors are watching over us. So there's a whole ceremony where your family brings you to the palace, and then you have the sword, and then you s- recite some words, some libation is poured to give you the ancestral blessing that you are standing on the shoulders of our ancestors.

[00:37:44] Nana Dei: And the minute time you become a chief, you are seen as literally you are one step closer to the ancestors, that you have moved- 

[00:37:52] Rita Burke: Wow ... 

[00:37:52] Nana Dei: a bit closer to the ancestors. And so the, it, it's a venerated status. Being an elder is a [00:38:00] venerated status, but being a chief, it's an honor. It's, it's, it's a very venerated status, and it's very important for us when we hold on to this tool, that we abide by the teachings of this tool, that we uphold the traditions, the custom, the values of our people, and ensure that those things are carried and conducted in a manner that is moral, is ethical, and has responsibility to the people.

[00:38:38] Ellington Brown: One of the things that you refer to, s- and since in this conversation has been the importance of relationships. So you form relationships among anti-oppression activists in education and, broader society. [00:39:00] Now, you have these conversations, and so I'm just wondering... Oh, and the other thing that you said was mentorship, so it's like kind of like a give and take thing.

[00:39:11] Ellington Brown: So I'm just wondering, have they ever in a conversation made a statement that you had to go, "Hmm, I need to think about that"? 

[00:39:22] Nana Dei: Y- you mean, you, uh, you talking of who, who, who, who's made that statement? 

[00:39:28] Ellington Brown: No, there is... No. The, it is hypothetical. 

[00:39:31] Nana Dei: Yeah. 

[00:39:31] Ellington Brown: Right. So, so basically what I'm asking is y- you talk about mentorship and- Oh, yes

[00:39:37] Ellington Brown: it's a give and, and take thing, and you talk about relationships. Yeah. And you talk about relationships among anti-oppression activists- Right ... in education and broader society. So in these conversations, y- you know, you come in with your, with your- Oh, yeah ... knowledge. They come in with maybe their experience- Yeah

[00:39:58] Ellington Brown: which is a difference. [00:40:00] And h- so you're, in this conversation, have you ever ran into someone that made a statement that made you have to go, "Hmm- I have to think about that. 

[00:40:11] Nana Dei: No, I, I, I think, uh, clearly I think that if, if, if, if someone hasn't encountered that experience, then they are not learners. You need to encounter that experience so that y- you grow in your own learning.

[00:40:26] Nana Dei: Because people are coming from it from different experiences, right? So somebody may give you a different point of view, a counterpoint that makes you say, "Hmm, you know, this is how they are looking at the issue." So you have to think about it, right? And, and then it, it happens particularly, uh, an- anti-racism, anti-Black, anti-oppression work, it happens, right?

[00:40:48] Nana Dei: Because people are coming from different experiences, right? There are some experiences that you may not be aware of, and you need to say, "Hmm, this is another way of thinking through the problem." That's how learning [00:41:00] happens. That's how learning happens in, in, in, in, in that space. I think to me, the problem, you see, the problem has always been where when you begin to think in hierarchies rather than think in circles.

[00:41:13] Nana Dei: Because if you think in circles, then you see that everybody within that circle has something relevant to say and you need to hear. Sometimes you may disagree, but contest it, not devalue it, not dismiss it, not to make them feel like they are ignorant, right? But to hear their voice, to hear their story, and to know where they are coming from.

[00:41:40] Nana Dei: Sometimes for some it is a privilege, and then you ca- you have to call them up if it's a privilege, right? For example, if they are maintaining White privilege, you call them out that, "Wait a minute now. What you are saying, it's about maintaining White privilege, and we need to call you out." Sometimes it's class privilege, sometimes it's even gender privilege, [00:42:00] and you call people out on that, right?

[00:42:02] Nana Dei: But at the end of the day, though, it's to be humble, to know where people are coming from, right? Because being in a dialogue means then that we have to understand the different aspects of oppression. We have to understand that we don't have all the knowledge, right? That learning is... There's no end to learning.

[00:42:21] Nana Dei: It's ongoing. So there are moments when you say, "Ah, yeah," right? And you have that in... For a teacher, you have that in the classroom. You have that in the classroom all the time when it's a, a student who say something that you have to think about it and say, "Oh, okay, I see how you are, you are reading." But your role sometimes is to say, when that thing happens, right, to know where they are coming from and to acknowledge it.

[00:42:45] Nana Dei: And if it's a privilege, you call them out. If it's not a privilege, but it's from an experience that has been silenced, that has been negated, you listen to that and work, right? I always say that, look, you know, I talked about humility, right? [00:43:00] But also, I think to me, our, our ancestors taught us about respect, right?

[00:43:07] Nana Dei: I think we need to respect our elders. We need to respect our elders. And respecting our elders doesn't mean that our elders don't do any wrong. But we value the knowledge, the wisdom, the traditions that they have, and appreciate that, that there's a reason why they have lived so many years than us, and learn from it.

[00:43:35] Nana Dei: So we cannot disrespect them. We cannot devalue them. We cannot make them vulnerable. We need to be humble. But yes, if they go wrong, we, we can also point out to them. And I think any elder who is actually an elder would be prepared to listen, right? We will be prepared to listen. No elder will brush off [00:44:00] The youth or somebody who simply has something to say and not listen to it.

[00:44:08] Nana Dei: This is why when, you know, in, in our culture, right, when you go to an elder and ask for an advice, right? Don't think the elder is going to say, "A, B, C, D. Here it is. Take away. Take the, the advice and go," in two minutes. They're going to say, "Pull the chair. Pull the chair closer." And what you thought was going to be a two-minute conversation could end up-

[00:44:32] Nana Dei: being one-hour conversation. 

[00:44:33] Rita Burke: Yes. 

[00:44:34] Nana Dei: They're going, telling you all these stories, right? All these stories are wisdom, they are knowledge, that you have to take them and digest them. Yes. So don't think you go to them and expect a simple answer to your question. It's going to be a story, and you have to be patient and listen to the story, and deal with it.

[00:44:58] Rita Burke: And that's how, that's [00:45:00] how we share wisdom and knowledge- Exactly ... through our stories, through our stories. Now, one last question, um, Nana Dei. Let's suppose that you have been invited to speak to a graduating class of teachers. 

[00:45:18] Nana Dei: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:18] Rita Burke: And more than likely, you've done this before. I'm not- Yeah ... I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't done this a million times before.

[00:45:24] Rita Burke: What are three nuggets that you would like to leave with that group? 

[00:45:28] Nana Dei: Yeah. I, I think the first, the first thing is understand your role as a teacher, the identity of a teacher, right? Uh, in my culture, where, where, where, where I grew up, right, uh, th- there's a saying that we talk about, "Teachers live long." Why do we say teachers live long?

[00:45:48] Nana Dei: Because we say teachers are supposed to do good, right? So they live long, right? So understand the identity of a teacher, that you're a teacher. You're [00:46:00] molding a learner, and that when you do something wrong, the students will remember at some point. That's why when you ask students, "Who is your favorite teacher?"

[00:46:11] Nana Dei: They will talk about, "Oh, I remember my high school teacher. I remember that teacher." And then they'll also say about a bad one, "Oh, I know this one, too, and he was, he or she was that," right? So I think it's very important to understand the teacher identity, what it means. Embody it, that you are somebody who is impacting knowledge.

[00:46:29] Nana Dei: You influence people, and it's very important to imp- and that you have to bring the sanctity of work to your role as teacher. You cannot put people down, right? You cannot diminish people. You cannot devalue, right? You cannot make them feel small. And I think understanding that teacher identity is very important.

[00:46:55] Nana Dei: The second, to me, is what, uh, it's called Martin [00:47:00] and Annie have talked about, right? That when we get into these spaces as schools, right, we shouldn't make schools make us what they want us to be. We should be the product of our resistance, right? So in other words, in these spaces, we enter these spaces, and we want to change these spaces to make it a better place than we came to see it, right?

[00:47:33] Nana Dei: I remember, look, somebody told me that, uh, and this is a long time ago. Somebody would say, "Well, you know-" The problem we have is you, these immigrants quote, "These guys who come here, and rather than being grateful, uh, and appreciative, you come and you're always complaining." And my response is that this is not about complaining.

[00:47:53] Nana Dei: We want to make this place better than we came to meet it. That's what we're saying, right? [00:48:00] That's what we're saying. And that is the greatest service, the greatest responsibility that we can do. It's not like we just come here and we just, when we see injustice, we keep quiet about it. When we see oppression, we keep quiet about it.

[00:48:15] Nana Dei: That is not doing any service to the community. I think we need to speak out, but we also need to recognize the history and the work that people have done and build on that, right? So to me, I, this question of the space in which we are as teachers, and not letting schools make us into who it wants us to be, but we become products of our own decolonization, is so important in that.

[00:48:43] Nana Dei: And the third one, to me, is becoming a warrior. It's related to this first one. A warrior is somebody who fights And you fight on behalf of those who cannot [00:49:00] fight, on behalf of those who are disadvantaged, on behalf of those who have been disenfranchised. So have it at the back of your mind that a good school is defined not by the way it treats those who are privileged.

[00:49:21] Nana Dei: A good school is defined by the way it treats those who are disenfranchised, by those who are disadvantaged. Okay. So if you want an excellent school, is the extent to which that school addresses the concerns of marginalized bodies, Black, indigenous, and racialized bodies. The extent to which that school is not so much concerned about attaining high scores, but making students feel a sense of welcome, a sense of connectedness, a sense of identification, a sense of pride that, "This is my school, and I'm proud to be [00:50:00] there."

[00:50:01] Nana Dei: And I think this is something that I want to leave with teachers, that become a warrior. A warrior is a fighter. A warrior is somebody who holds up somebody's hand and moves with them, and it's very important to recognize that. And I think part of that too is this recognition, which is from an African proverb, that sometimes you have to be strategic.

[00:50:28] Nana Dei: You have to be strategic, right? And there's a, an African saying that if you stand at the end of the cliff, when you are standing at the end of the cliff, any step backward is progress. When you are standing at the end of a cliff, any step backward is progress. This is why we need to also always not forget about the past.

[00:50:59] Nana Dei: Reclaim [00:51:00] it. To me, that step backward is about reclaiming. So you've moved, and then you want to reclaim something. You can only go back and reclaim it, right? So when you are standing at the end of the cliff, any s- one, any step backward, one step backward, it's progress

[00:51:20] Nana Dei: And so me- to me, this is very important because we need courage, we need warriorship, right? We need people to understand the identity of what it means to be a teacher, and we need teachers to recognize, for example, that, look Caring for our students is very important Caring. Bringing ethical responsibility to our work, the sanctity of our work.

[00:51:50] Nana Dei: And this engages a question to me, as somebody who's very, very spiritual, that we bring a spiritual understanding of who we are [00:52:00] and our responsibility to others into the work that we do. In that space. It's so important in that 

[00:52:07] Ellington Brown: I have to, definitely agree with you, Nana, that these things or these steps that we're taking today are important for us and for the, the, the future of, uh, Blacks when it comes to being educated.

[00:52:27] Ellington Brown: And I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that teachers should be warriors, and they should be because they're fighting for the next generation to make sure that they have the curriculums that reflect their passion, and that they also understand anti-racism, um, ethnicity and indigenous knowledge and de- [00:53:00] decolonialation.

[00:53:03] Ellington Brown: Decolonization, sorry. Yeah. These things are all important, and in our conversation with you today, you kind of wrapped all of that in a, in, in a very, many, many layered cake and put a ribbon a- around it and handed it to, Rita and I and our audience, and I'm sure that they're going to be inspired by your thoughts, your, and your examples.

[00:53:35] Nana Dei: Can I add something? This, I think, to me, is very important, right? 

[00:53:38] Ellington Brown: Yes. 

[00:53:39] Nana Dei: Um, you know, when some first talk about anti-Black racism, anti-Asian racism, anti-Indigenous racism, antisemitism, all forms of oppression, there are some who think, "Oh, these are special interests." No, there's no way you [00:54:00] can talk about education today which is anything but anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-homophobic- Anti-classes.

[00:54:09] Nana Dei: This is for the common good. This is for the common good, right? Because there's a trend now where now people are talking about, oh, wokeism. They are talking about, um, um, critical race theory, even sometimes when they don't even understand what critical race theory is about, and they go about crit- critiquing it, right?

[00:54:29] Nana Dei: I think to be, to be woke is to be awoken to injustice, right? To understand the history, how certain histories have been silenced, right? There are certain things that are not taught to our students. They don't know much about our history, whether it's African history. They think African history is all about slavery.

[00:54:53] Nana Dei: They don't talk about the kingdoms, the kings, the achievements They don't [00:55:00] talk about the fact that throughout human history, we have made significant contributions as a people, right? So when you watch the, the, the movie Hidden Figures, for example, right? How many of our students know that it was a group of Black female scientists who discovered that mathematical formula that landed us in space?

[00:55:25] Nana Dei: We are not told this, right? And it's very important. So all what you hear is about wokeism, wokeism. And that's why to me, I, I would simply argue that anybody who is anti-woke is anti-Black. Being anti-woke is anti-Black. We have to understand what it means, and we cannot corrupt the meaning of wokeness the way sometimes it's been corrupted, because wokeness has a history in terms of people looking at what was happening in our community, the injustices, and fighting [00:56:00] and asking people to be conscious.

[00:56:01] Nana Dei: To become conscious and aware of these injustices, and not simply be complacent. But to work hard, build communities, and build communities with others. Not just ourselves, with others who are part of the struggle in order to bring about the change that we want. And that is very important, right? Because at the end of the day, you can't remove one oppression and leave the others intact.

[00:56:30] Nana Dei: We have to work together. But always recognize that sometimes even when we want to take all the oppressions, people want to leave one of it behind. And one of the things that people want to behi- leave behind sometimes is racism and anti-Blackness, right? We have... There's a discomfort in speaking race, so it becomes a disappearing act, and we have to call people up on that.

[00:56:53] Nana Dei: And race is not about Blackness. It's not just about Blackness. Race is also whiteness, [00:57:00] right? So when people want, when, when people want to just say, "Oh, don't talk about race," they are not just saying, "Don't talk about Blackness." They also don't want us to talk about whiteness. And let's call them up on that.

[00:57:12] Nana Dei: We can't put it in under the corset. We need to have an honest discussion. We are implicated. We are complicit And we want to address it, right?

[00:57:21] Rita Burke: It makes people uncomfortable. I'm sure you will agree with me, talking about race makes people uncomfortable. 

[00:57:27] Nana Dei: Yes. 

[00:57:27] Rita Burke: But it doesn't, it doesn't take care of the issue.

[00:57:30] Nana Dei: No. 

[00:57:32] Rita Burke: And I remember many years ago, uh, Bill Clinton said that racism is their problem, but it's our burden. It's our burden, but it's their problem. They created it, and i- i- it's important for them to take care of it. 

[00:57:50] Nana Dei: Yeah. So I've heard- Yeah, and I, I remember him rephrases and say, "R- racism is our problem, it's our bur- our burden."

[00:57:56] Nana Dei: And the reason I say that, Fanon, right? Fanon a long t- time ago said [00:58:00] we can't escape our race as a Black people. We can't escape our race. And I would say, why should we escape our race? We actually have to embrace it. We have to embrace our racial identity because it, it allows us to speak about Black consciousness, right?

[00:58:17] Nana Dei: But you ... But Fanon's point about we can't escape our race is where it becomes a burden. It's always a burden because of the way race has been given particular meanings, right? And now let's talk about it. The problem is not color. You know, when people sometimes come into a room, say, say, "I don't see any color," right?

[00:58:37] Nana Dei: Uh, it's been an insult. That colorblindness is an insult. The problem is not the color, it's the interpretation that we put on the color. And others like Christine Sleeter, others long ago talked about it. It's the interpretation that we ... Just because somebody is Black, if you think he or she is inferior.

[00:58:54] Nana Dei: Just because somebody is white, if you, you think he or she is superior. That's the problem. So the [00:59:00] problem is not the color, it's the interpretation that we put, uh, on the, on, on the color. That is the problem. And this is why we have to disassociate those negative meanings that we have attributed to these things, right?

[00:59:14] Nana Dei: And to think about it in a different way, right? To think about it in a, in a, in a different way. And it's all about coming to that critical consciousness. But you know also, and Fanon talks about this, if you come to a consciousness, a critical consciousness, and you just sit on it and not do anything with it, then you might as well have been where you are.

[00:59:36] Nana Dei: If you come into critical consciousness, then act on it to bring about change. 

[00:59:42] Rita Burke: Hence SpeakUP! International. 

[00:59:43] Nana Dei: Yes. 

[00:59:44] Rita Burke: Hence SpeakUP! International. We're seeking to inform, to educate, to inspire because of our critical consciousness of the things and the important things that people are doing in our community.

[00:59:58] Rita Burke: So I, I really [01:00:00] thank you. This has been so enlightening. This has been so enlightening and informative and inspiring, Nana Dei. 

[01:00:08] Nana Dei: Thank you! Thank you for having me! 

[01:00:13] Ellington Brown: Thank you for tuning in to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact our guest, Nana Dei, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Nana Dei at linkedin.com. Nana Dei has other social media accounts you can use to contact him that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms.

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