[00:00:10] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! Today our guest is Rochelle Ramathe and she is going to read an excerpt from her book, Why Black Skin Matters. Rochelle, the floor is yours! 

[00:00:32] Rochelle Ramathe: The first time my husband and I stepped into a millionaire's home, it was in 2009. My family and I got to see firsthand how exhilarating it may be to live in a m- immaculate house near a golf course.

[00:00:50] Rochelle Ramathe: Now imagine for a moment that this millionaire found your number in the phone book and said, "I have $2 million to give [00:01:00] away and I want to give it to you, but let's meet at the mall in 20 minutes so I can hand you the check." You would probably be so excited and immediately want to head in the direction of the mall.

[00:01:14] Rochelle Ramathe: You then realize you were so happy about this offer that you forgot to ask, "Which mall?" You also realize that you don't even have the millionaire's phone number. How will you get the money? You know the destination you're trying to get to, but you don't know how to get there because there are so many malls to choose from.

[00:01:42] Rochelle Ramathe: Simply knowing the destination in this situation is still not enough to get to the d- desired goal, which i- in this case is the money. And so when I do work in the area of diversity, I know we all know the great [00:02:00] destination to get there, but how do we get there?

[00:02:06] Rita Burke: The voice you just heard is from Rochelle Ramethe. Now, yesterday we spoke with a woman from Edmonton, Alberta, and the day before we spoke with a woman from South Africa. So we are indeed SpeakUP! International. Our guest today is a catalyst for change in the corporate world. She merges her specialty in DEI and social work while sharing her story about burnout.

[00:02:46] Rita Burke: Rochelle speaks about practical solutions to reignite employees' passion while preventing burnout. She has garnered respect [00:03:00] and admiration globally for her work. And last but not least, she is an author. And as we say on SpeakUP! International, we like our guests to tell their own stories. And so I'm leaving the rest for Rochelle to tell.

[00:03:17] Rita Burke: Welcome to SpeakUP! International, Rochelle Ramethe! 

[00:03:23] Rochelle Ramathe: Thank you! Thank you, Rita. Thank you, Elton. Just even for having this platform so people can hear the voices of people that maybe may often be overlooked, so we're missing out on different perspectives if we don't hear different voices.

[00:03:42] Ellington Brown: Thank you for the encouraging words!

[00:03:45] Ellington Brown: We really do appreciate them! Today we wanna start, with your personal and professional journey. So can you share your journey of resilience and determination [00:04:00] that inspired your transition from academic struggles to earning a master's degree? 

[00:04:06] Rochelle Ramathe: Absolutely! So I grew up in Edmonton, Alberta.

[00:04:10] Rochelle Ramathe: My parents are from Jamaica and Barbados, and we lived in predominantly white environments. And what I noticed when I was going to school is that I was overlooked, my strengths were overlooked. I didn't see a lot of teachers that looked like me. There were not a lot of people who looked like me in the textbooks.

[00:04:31] Rochelle Ramathe: So I actually didn't do well in school. And like, I'm even surprised that I graduated from high school. I went through school with very poor grades, so as poor as a D. So I wrote the book recently called From D's to a Master's Degree, because something changed for me, particularly around my identity, and also finally being seen.

[00:04:57] Rochelle Ramathe: I went to a historically Black university in [00:05:00] Alabama. It's called Oakwood University. For the first time, I had all Black professors. They had PhDs. Dr. Ashley, Dr. Frazier, Dr. Mavis Mitchell, Dr. Helen Fishle. So all people that looked like me with degrees. And I remember when I was still failing in my bachelor's degree in social work, but Dr.

[00:05:24] Rochelle Ramathe: Frazier came to me one time when she saw very low grade, but she also saw my potential. She said, "Rochelle, what, uh, right now you're making D's, but one day I see that you'll have a master's degree." And just her point of actually seeing me and seeing my potential, that made the difference and changed the trajectory of my life.

[00:05:51] Rochelle Ramathe: So I went on to get a ma- a bachelor's degree in social work, then a master's degree in social work, and then went on to write three [00:06:00] books, because at that same university, I had professor named Dr. Keslyn Brade, and she said, "Social workers can do anything." And years later, when I said, "Dr. Keslyn, can social workers write books as well?"

[00:06:16] Rochelle Ramathe: She said, "Absolutely." And that opened the floodgates of where I am today on three books. Why My Black Skin Matters, which was my first book. Black Faces in White Spaces is my second book, and my third one that was just released in September, From Ds to a Master's Degree

[00:06:40] Ellington Brown: You are a prolific writer, obviously. And it's something that I think you enjoy doing, and I don't think it's a struggle for you to actually put your words to paper And in doing so, how did [00:07:00] your experiences with the workplace burnout shape your passion for supporting employee wellbeing in professional environments?

[00:07:11] Rochelle Ramathe: I think that's a very good question. I want to also, I wanna expand on what burnout is so that your listeners can hear two aspects of burnout, because I experienced both. Now, the first aspect of burnout is actually when you're not a match for the work environment. So if you understood maybe your strengths, like I did later on, then example, my strengths, I'm a leader, I love action-oriented things, I love speaking, I love writing, but one of the first jobs I had was actually in an office.

[00:07:48] Rochelle Ramathe: You sit at a desk from 9:00 to 5:00. You're not an- interacting with people. It's just administrative work. So I actually experienced burnout because the job wasn't [00:08:00] a good match for me. So that's the first aspect of burnout. But the one that was the catalyst to the work that I do today, I read this analogy.

[00:08:11] Rochelle Ramathe: It's a lady, Dr. Maslach, she actually leads in research as it relates to burnout, and her book, she starts her book by saying that they used to do an experiment for those who were in a coal mine, miners who used to work in coal mines. She said they noticed that a lot of the miners were passing away because of carbon monoxide in the coal mine.

[00:08:35] Rochelle Ramathe: And then she said what they decided to do was bring canaries, so the bird. They would bring them down into the coal mine only because canaries were able to detect carbon monoxide way in advance. So they saw if the canary collapsed in the coal mine, it would alert the miners, "Leave the environment [00:09:00] quickly because carbon monoxide has been detected."

[00:09:03] Rochelle Ramathe: Now, they stopped that project in 1990. They stopped researching and doing things of that nature. But she writes in her book, would we ever tell the canary if they were a human being, "You know what? You didn't do well in this environment because you weren't focused on work-life, um, balance," or, or, "You didn't go to enough yoga classes," or, "You didn't do deep breathing," or, "You didn't..."

[00:09:30] Rochelle Ramathe: All these things that focus on the canary. But she said, "No, burnout also happens when you are in toxic environments." So the catalyst behind my work is because I was in a toxic environment, but the caveat with my work is that I was actually experiencing a unique type of burnout that only happens to people of color.

[00:09:56] Rochelle Ramathe: It's called racial battle- [00:10:00] fatigue. So after I was hospitalized based on experiencing the toxic environment that was really impacting employees of color, that is when I said something needs to change. So that day I fired my job and I hired myself to go around and speak about this issue and provide practical tools for e- organizations of how they can help workplaces become inclusive spaces so all employees can thrive 

[00:10:34] Rita Burke: Well, that was quite a dissertation-

[00:10:38] Rita Burke: on burnout, and I thank you for it. But I want to go back to something that you said earlier, and I am really impressed and amazed that you were so honest and so transparent. You actually said that you were not good in school. A lot of people wouldn't be comfortable [00:11:00] sharing that information with the public, so obviously you are so actualized that you're comfortable sharing that information.

[00:11:07] Rita Burke: Now, I want to move on to how do you explain the pressure Black women put on themselves? How do you explain that pressure that we put on ourselves? 

[00:11:17] Rochelle Ramathe: Yeah, so I, I would say in two ways. One, we grew up with, with a narrative a- as Black women or Black girls. A narrative of we are strong Black women, and then also a narrative of basically we can handle everything.

[00:11:38] Rochelle Ramathe: And I wanna say our parents are well-meaning. My mom is from Jamaica. She's very well-meaning, but I remember on Sundays she would wake us up in the morning, she's like, "Get up, get up and do something." So get up and work is basically what she was saying. It was almost like resting is [00:12:00] unproductive. So that's the message that I got, continue to work, work, work.

[00:12:05] Rochelle Ramathe: Last of all, the message of this idea of an angry Black wom- woman. So sometimes you go into workplaces then and you say, "Whatever I do, I don't wanna appear angry. Whatever I do, I don't wanna appear weak because I'm strong." So then we keep taking things and taking things and taking things, and the reality is we have to, we had to be strong.

[00:12:28] Rochelle Ramathe: That's why we were strong, but we don't necessarily have to be now. We can, um, really be honest about, you know, the workload is too difficult, or I need to rest sometime. So I do think it's a little difficult for Black women in the workplace because of those two things. And last of all, we honestly are in workplaces where we're actually told we can't be ourselves, and I really want to highlight Black women versus Black men.

[00:12:59] Rochelle Ramathe: I [00:13:00] know sometimes r- people say, "Well, why focus on Black women?" When I think about even the majority of breadwinners, they are Black women, meaning sometimes Black women are single parents, which means their income is very important. But since it's important, that means that some of us are, um- We are very good at playing the game in order to keep our salaries.

[00:13:30] Rochelle Ramathe: So one of the games we have to play, look at my hair today. If you are in an environment and you want to be promoted, the question is would you be able to wear an Afro or your natural hair? I mean, the jury's out on that, but the reality is in America they have something called the Crown Act just because Black women were discriminated against just because of their hair.

[00:13:54] Rochelle Ramathe: So I know for Black women in the workplace, you are almost forced to be something [00:14:00] other than yourself, especially if you wanna get promoted in the work environment. 

[00:14:05] Rita Burke: So it's- Is that what they call code switching? 

[00:14:07] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes, absolutely. That's what they call code switching. Do what you need to do in this environment in order to survive.

[00:14:15] Rochelle Ramathe: As a matter of fact, Oprah Winfrey shares it about her story when she began in the television industry. They told her, "You have to change the, your hair. It needs to be straight." And she talks about doing perm or relaxer, and it ruining her hair. So the reality is Black women have an additional pressure to even look a certain way in order to be deemed professional.

[00:14:41] Ellington Brown: Michelle Obama had that same problem- Absolutely ... when she was in the White House, and she basically wanted to wear braids. I mean, she wanted to display her Blackness, but they weren't having it.

[00:14:56] Ellington Brown: And so she- straightened her hair, uh, make sure that her [00:15:00] daughter's hair was, was also straightened.

[00:15:02] Ellington Brown: Yeah. Um, and there were certain rules that she had to follow in order to be acceptable. 

[00:15:10] Rochelle Ramathe: Exactly, which adds an extra burn-up, uh, which acts, adds an extra burden, Elton. And the question is, is there any other racial group that you know that even has to change their hair in order to survive work environments?

[00:15:26] Ellington Brown: Hmm. I can't think of any

[00:15:28] Rochelle Ramathe: Neither can I

[00:15:29] Ellington Brown: I really can't, can't. And this, this brings me right into, uh... Oh yeah, today I was listening to the news and I heard in the States that there pr- there's a bill that has been proposed to dismantle DEI. Yeah. Uh, because they feel that it provides minorities an unfair advantage.

[00:15:55] Ellington Brown: And so Ms. Crockett, who is a Black [00:16:00] congresswoman, I think she's from Texas, what does she give to- she laid the the Riot Act. Uh, no one said anything. They were all dead silent because they, you know, w- they're afraid of that woman. Mm-hmm. And then they should. So how do you approach addressing systemic barriers to- Mm-hmm

[00:16:19] Ellington Brown: create inclusive workplace environments? 

[00:16:23] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes. I'm glad you asked that question, and I think it's important to look at it, 'cause I know people get a little emotional when we zoom in, but I want us to zoom out for a moment. So one of the things my parents did when we grew up in Edmonton, Alberta, they decided to become foster parents to three children with severe disabilities, but I wanna focus our attention on Amanda for a moment.

[00:16:51] Rochelle Ramathe: She was a white foster child. She could not walk, she could not talk, and she could not [00:17:00] use the bathroom, and she couldn't see, which meant she was in a wheelchair. One particular day, I went to the park with Amanda, strolling her in the wheelchair, and then sat at the park and realized there were children having fun and laughing.

[00:17:17] Rochelle Ramathe: And just to let you know, Amanda loved laughing as well. We knew how to, like, tap on her wheelchair and pretend we were hurt, and we're like, "Amanda," and she would laugh. So she loves laughing, too. But something happened at the park that really saddened me. There were children walking up the steps and sliding down a slide and laughing.

[00:17:41] Rochelle Ramathe: And then I looked to my left, and I looked at Amanda in the wheelchair, and I thought to myself, even if Amanda wanted to walk up those steps and slide down, she would not be able to. Why? Because the person who designed the park did not [00:18:00] have Amanda in mind. So the reality is when we look at systems, they have only a certain group of people in mind, which means they get to laugh more than we can laugh because they have an advantage because these environments were created for them.

[00:18:19] Rochelle Ramathe: So when we think about diversity, equity, and inclusion, let's look at Amanda. She deserves to laugh as well. She deserves to be in that playground as well. So not just some people should be advantaged. All should thrive. So DEI is essentially saying, yeah, everyone in this environment is not thriving because it wasn't created for everyone.

[00:18:45] Rochelle Ramathe: How can we recreate it so that all can thrive? 

[00:18:50] Rita Burke: So what I heard you saying, Rochelle, is that we all have a right to joy [00:19:00] 

[00:19:00] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes ... 

[00:19:01] Rita Burke: And being accommodated or included in the structures-

[00:19:06] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes ...

[00:19:08] Rita Burke: and in the value-

[00:19:09] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes ...

[00:19:09] Rita Burke: and in the environment- 

[00:19:09] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes ... 

[00:19:10] Rita Burke: is very, very important for us. 

[00:19:12] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes. 

[00:19:13] Rita Burke: So I want to hear you talk a little bit about the day-to-day ups, the day-to-day tips and story we can embrace to prevent burnout.

[00:19:24] Rita Burke: What are some of the- Yeah ... little things we can do to prevent burnout? 

[00:19:27] Rochelle Ramathe: I love that you said that! So I think the practical things, 'cause I really focus on practical things, one, if work is over at 4:30, so should your phone be off, and your emails or checking work emails. That shouldn't happen. There should be an element of boundaries that you institute.

[00:19:48] Rochelle Ramathe: So I would say not only turn off your phone physically from work, especially if you have a work phone, but start thinking about things like digital detox. How many times are we [00:20:00] just scrolling on our phone, scrolling, and not necessarily doing anything for our wellness in terms of even physical wellness?

[00:20:08] Rochelle Ramathe: I would also say take advantage of your vacation days. They exist for a reason, and there was a research done in the States where there were millions of people that did not fully use their vacation every single year. That means that we're not taking advantage of the times where actually we need to come aside and rest and res- recharge.

[00:20:32] Rochelle Ramathe: I'd probably say two last things. We wanna be in environments where there's a sense of community. We talk about self-care, but there's an important element of community care, especially f- if you are from cultures that are quite communal. I know my husband is from South Africa. They are absolutely communal.

[00:20:53] Rochelle Ramathe: They actually have a word called ubuntu, I am because you are. [00:21:00] So the question is what are you doing to experience joy in community? I think that is very important for burnout. And I'd probably say, last of all, it's important to have maybe allies or, um, mentors in the environment or in your profession, and probably therapists, someone that you can kinda share your emotions or your heart with, and they can kind of help you problem solve or, um, advance in your career if you'd like to advance.

[00:21:31] Rochelle Ramathe: So I would probably say those four main things, uh, would be critical for, um, preventing burnout. 

[00:21:40] Ellington Brown: I wanna shift just a bit, to your book, Black Faces in White Spaces. I have it right here! 

[00:21:49] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes!

[00:21:51] Ellington Brown: And I wanna know: How do you differentiate between mentorship and sponsorship, [00:22:00] and why is this distinction important?

[00:22:04] Rochelle Ramathe: Uh, that's an amazing question. I'm glad you said that. Mentorship to me is guidance on your professional journey. So maybe if, um, someone who looks like you, so example, my mentor, she's a Black woman. Because I do a lot of public speaking, she's a motivational speaker. She's actually the former Miss USA 2016!

[00:22:27] Rochelle Ramathe: Her name's Deshauna Barber. So she does things like, "Okay, this is what you, um, can consider when you're transitioning into the public speaking field," or, "Okay, consider this, consider this." So that's someone who gives guidance, which is really important. But sponsors are the ones that now open opportunities because of the power dynamic they have so that you can im- be included in promotion now.

[00:22:55] Rochelle Ramathe: So example, if you're in a workplace where you look at the leadership team and you [00:23:00] see maybe 90% of them are white, that would mean your sponsor would probably have to be someone who's white, because she or he can speak about you in rooms that you would not have gotten to, and then they open ways for you to also get in the room.

[00:23:17] Rochelle Ramathe: So sponsorship is very important because they open the room for you to get in, w- whereas mentorship, it's just really guidance along your professional journey 

[00:23:29] Rita Burke: I like that. It's really important to have a mentor/sponsor. 

[00:23:37] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes. 

[00:23:37] Rita Burke: Uh, it's an interesting story. I can't tell too much about it, but in, in, in an office that I visit for med- medical attention, there's a young woman who works there And I said to my husband earlier this week, "I wish I could mentor her, because she can do with some mentoring."

[00:23:57] Rita Burke: And she's Black, and I could feel that she needs some [00:24:00] mentoring. 

[00:24:00] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm. 

[00:24:01] Rita Burke: Because I, I'm not impressed with how she's doing what she does. 

[00:24:05] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm. 

[00:24:05] Rita Burke: It would be interesting, because that's my background, and she could do with some help, I believe. Yes. But that's all I have to say. Uh, that's all I have to say about that.

[00:24:14] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm. 

[00:24:15] Rita Burke: Now, you have worked offshore. You are Canadian. 

[00:24:22] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes. 

[00:24:23] Rita Burke: And you have studied in the States. 

[00:24:25] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes. 

[00:24:26] Rita Burke: And you have had positions offshore. 

[00:24:28] Speaker 2: Yes. 

[00:24:29] Rita Burke: What would you say was your most amazing, fascinating, enjoyable, thrilling offshore assignment? 

[00:24:38] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes. I, I think that's a good question. I remember when I moved to South Korea, and I was promoted as a leader at an English language institute.

[00:24:49] Rochelle Ramathe: I was, uh, a manager of 11 international teachers, some from South Africa, Canada, America, New Zealand, New Zealand, [00:25:00] Australia, Myanmar. So sometimes these were countries that I had n- I had never been to or had no clue about. But I remember one particular day, I decided that all of us would go to a restaurant, a Korean restaurant, to get to know each other a little bit more.

[00:25:15] Rochelle Ramathe: And one of the things I used to do back then, I was like a show-off. So I learned about four Korean words, and I was like, "You don't want anyone to help me when I'm ordering. I'm just going to order based on the four Korean words that I know." So I remember saying, "Ajeossi, chogiyo." And I sa- I pointed in, um, the menu of what I wanted.

[00:25:39] Rochelle Ramathe: One particular Korean teacher said, "Hey, I can help you order." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, I got this." Anyways, after the meal came, all of us were eating our meal, and then I kept eating. It tasted good, but something tasted rubbery. But I still kept eating, still kept eating. And the Korean teacher [00:26:00] then said to me, "I didn't know you ate octopus."

[00:26:03] Rochelle Ramathe: And I said, "Octo-who? Octo-what?" And she said, "Yeah, that's why I wanted to order for you, because I saw that you chose octopus in your meal." So it was mixed with rice and all of these things. But I think the biggest thing when you say offshore, um, it's this idea that I recognize everyone actually has value, and sometimes we are overlooking value.

[00:26:29] Rochelle Ramathe: So when I think about that Korean teacher, she actually was very valuable, but I overlooked it. So one of the great things I believe I experienced by managing so many diverse teachers is now started to create a lens in which I always look at people and say- they have value.

[00:26:51] Ellington Brown: Speaking of value, I, there's... I'm gonna ask one more question from out of this book- Okay ... because I don't want to [00:27:00] give it away and then our audience says, "Oh, you know, we've already got the gist of it, so we don't need to, to buy it." And I, I wanna say right now, this is an excellent book. Yes, it's, it's kinda leans towards women, but men can read this too and become educated.

[00:27:18] Ellington Brown: There is no reason- Mm ... why, uh, this book would not help men as well. 

[00:27:25] Rochelle Ramathe: I love that! 

[00:27:26] Ellington Brown: So I wanna know about work-life balance. 

[00:27:31] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:27:32] Ellington Brown: Self-care. You touched a little bit about that, but I would love if you could maybe talk just a little more about that, especially for, Black women. My mom was a, a nurse.

[00:27:44] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm-hmm.

[00:27:45] Ellington Brown: And she had a, she was a nurse. She had three boys. She was bringing them up without her husband. 

[00:27:52] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm. 

[00:27:52] Ellington Brown: And I could see the stress on her face.

[00:27:56] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes.

[00:27:56] Ellington Brown: When she comes home, it wasn't a thing where she could, like, [00:28:00] collapse. No. She had to, fix dinner,

[00:28:02] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes ...

[00:28:03] Ellington Brown: so how is it possible to determine what is a, the best work-life balance and self-care for anyone?

[00:28:14] Rochelle Ramathe: Yeah. I think that that is such a good question. I do think the debate is out on the concept of work-life balance. I believe some people are saying it's actually a myth. It is not work-life balance, it's actually work-life priorities. So I'm saying that because when I had my two children, I was working in child welfare.

[00:28:39] Rochelle Ramathe: I remember one day, I w- I had to place this particular foster child in another home, and the home was about one hour away, and I finished at 11:00 PM. And I said to myself, "I have a two-year-old and a three-year-old at home, and I am trying to help a [00:29:00] foster child go to a better home, but I'm not even in my home."

[00:29:05] Rochelle Ramathe: So I said to myself, "This job is not going to work for my work-life priorities. My children are very young at this stage. I need to choose a career that helps me be home more." Uh, so I, I think if we start looking at priorities, what is your priority? I'd ask myself that first. And if we wanna talk about balance, I would say always have something that you're doing in your spiritual life, your mind, and your body.

[00:29:38] Rochelle Ramathe: So spirit, mind, body. So what are you doing in those areas? So perhaps body, you might say, "I'm going to the gym because that works for me." Or perhaps you say, "No, I like taking walks. That works for me." Whatever works for you, there needs to be y- something that you do for your body, and then there needs to be doi- [00:30:00] something that you do for your mind.

[00:30:01] Rochelle Ramathe: I think this is critical, especially post-pandemic. A lot of people, the research is saying, are really, um, dealing with mental health challenges, of course, because we had to be isolated, of course, because we had to pivot quickly in terms of what our jobs look like. So the question is, what are we doing proactively for our mental health?

[00:30:25] Rochelle Ramathe: So I do believe mind has a lot to do with what we can do. Something as simple as journaling, like a gratitude journal, something as simple as, um- They'd say maybe deep breathing. People would say yoga. But anything that does something to your mind that makes it well. Maybe they'll talk about food that you eat.

[00:30:46] Rochelle Ramathe: So I would say body, mind, and last of all, spirit. Choose what you wanna do for your spirituality. Some may go to church, some may pray, some may go to meditation retreats, some... Whatever [00:31:00] you do, do something for your spirit. So I would probably say work-life balance is really work-life priorities, but in all areas, whichever age and stage you are at in life, there should always be something you do for your body, your mind, and your spirit.

[00:31:17] Rita Burke: Yes. Yes. Uh, you're, you're quite right in terms of is there ever balance? But we must be aware, we must be aware and focused on those dimensions of our life. Really, really- Yes ... I like that. I like that explanation. Now, Rochelle, your bio says that you bring more than words to the stage, and I'm beginning to feel that already.

[00:31:40] Rita Burke: Now, please explain what else is embedded in your presentations when you do a speech? 

[00:31:47] Rochelle Ramathe: Yeah, so that's actually a good question, and a couple of years ago when I was struggling with what I should do for my career, believe it or not, I tried to pivot to become a stand-up comedian. [00:32:00] So I ended up getting a comedy coach.

[00:32:03] Rochelle Ramathe: His name was Ryan. He started teaching things like the science behind a joke, when you do a punchline, how you tell a story, and then he told me to practice, say, at the end of three sessions. I practiced, and I did the routine that I practiced, and he did not laugh. He didn't know how to say, "You're wasting your money, Rochelle.

[00:32:29] Rochelle Ramathe: Maybe you should try a different career." So when I think about what I bring to this, the stage or talks, it is actually this element of humor, especially because the topics we talk about are quite emotionally charged. And as you might see based on some of the stories I tell, I also bring this element of vulnerability.

[00:32:52] Rochelle Ramathe: I think it is sometimes we don't see sometimes Black women being as vulnerable. I don't know if we've h- we, we would've heard a [00:33:00] Black woman say, "I was hospitalized." I don't know if we would hear a Black woman say th- "This didn't work for me, so I had to leave the job." I, I don't know if we'd hear a Black woman say, "I was out trying to transport a foster youth to their home at l- 11:00 PM, yet my two-year-old and three-year-old was without their mom."

[00:33:21] Rochelle Ramathe: So I, I do bring vulnerability stories and humor, and last of all, practical strategies of how we can move from where we are to a better place.

[00:33:35] Rochelle Ramathe: Better place. I love that, that w- word. Better, or I should say that collection of words. Better place. 

[00:33:44] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes. 

[00:33:45] Ellington Brown: So how do you adapt your speaking and consulting content? You may talk to someone at an organization. They tell you what their needs are. You go off and [00:34:00] you create the session or- ... the presentation you're going to give, and then you get to the, organization's stage, and you begin to give your presentation, and they all look like they're, you know, a deer caught in the headlights.

[00:34:20] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:20] Ellington Brown: How do you pivot, or how do you find out in real time, okay, well, what is it that you want?

[00:34:27] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes! Exactly. So it's what you rightfully said. Speak to the organizer, share a little bit ab- so that they could share a little bit about the current challenges in the workplace. Share with me what they'd like the presentation to do.

[00:34:43] Rochelle Ramathe: Also share with me where they believe the employees are at this stage, some of the challenges that they're dealing with. But I think secondly, and I think this was important 'cause I was trained on the provincial level and, uh, on how to deliver equity, diversity, and inclusion [00:35:00] training, and one fascinating exercise that we usually start with is this idea of what's in a name.

[00:35:07] Rochelle Ramathe: And what it essentially does is get people to turn to the person beside them, share their name, and share if they know the origin of their name, like how did your parents name you what they named you? So what we notice when we start that way, one, with an icebreaker, or two, with an opportunity for us to have a level playing field because everyone has a name, that almost, um, gets people to kind of be a little more relaxed in having these conversations.

[00:35:37] Rochelle Ramathe: So yes, I would say a mixture of the person in the organization that brought me in for them to share a little bit more about the organization so I can tailor the presentation, but also when I present, there are certain exercises that help people have some sort of level playing ground and also some sort of relief around the topic before we [00:36:00] get into it.

[00:36:04] Rita Burke: I, I suspect that a person who works in DEI You are always helping people to win. 

[00:36:15] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:15] Rita Burke: So could you share a story where you helped somebody to win either professionally or personally, please? 

[00:36:24] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm-hmm. So that is a good question. I'd probably say because maybe for the, maybe 10 year- for 10 years I was in private practice, meaning I was doing therapy support, and I noticed that there were a lot of Black women gravitating towards my therapy service.

[00:36:45] Rochelle Ramathe: But then I noticed that a lot of them were actually bringing their children to, uh, to me for therapy, and it was because of what the children were experiencing in the workplace. And this is probably a recent win because [00:37:00] a lady that I, um, counseled her daughter, a Black girl, amazing. I was able to see her potential because I went to historically Black university where I saw the value of seeing potential in Black youth and also speaking it over their life.

[00:37:15] Rochelle Ramathe: And I remember she was really sad, even suicidal. And some of the words and coping strategies I was able, um, to give her, it was empowering for that moment. But I never knew what happened to that little girl after, um, the counseling session, 'cause many times you plant seeds, but you do not see the fruits of your labor.

[00:37:37] Rochelle Ramathe: But I remember on LinkedIn actually a couple of weeks ago, her mom private messaged me and said, "I'm so glad that you were able to counsel my daughter years ago. She's doing so well in education now, and she's in university." I looked at the lady's profile to say, "Who is that person? I don't even know who that is."

[00:37:59] Rochelle Ramathe: But when I [00:38:00] looked at her profile more, I'm like, "That's the lady." So that is definitely a big win, especially because in this work sometimes you don't see the fruits of your labor, but I was able to hear about the fruits of my labor a couple of weeks ago. 

[00:38:16] Ellington Brown: Wonderful! Absolutely wonderful!

[00:38:19] Rochelle Ramathe: Thank you!

[00:38:19] Ellington Brown: What advice would you give individuals or organizations looking to create more inclusive and supportive environments?

[00:38:30] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes. That's a good question. I think sometimes we don't listen to the people who have challenges in the environment. So right now in Canada, I'm not sure if you heard of something called a Black class action lawsuit. So a lot of federal employees have come together, Black employees, and they have, um, started and initiated a lawsuit against the government.

[00:38:55] Rochelle Ramathe: And one of the things that they were talking about, so many deplorable [00:39:00] conditions that they'd have to work under. We talked about some of the microaggressions and biases that they had to experience. Some people saying they- Started taking, um, medication because of mental health challenges that happened as a result of the environment.

[00:39:15] Rochelle Ramathe: But what was interesting is that they said, "For many years, we actually shared with the workplace, this is what's happening to us. I do think it's important to have some sort of feedback mechanism in the workplace, and one that's anonymous so we're not consequenced for telling our truth. And then we need to have..."

[00:39:37] Rochelle Ramathe: So they gave all of these different things that they need to have for the workplace to be better. So I think probably two main things, have accountability mechanisms in the workplace, and have confidential feedback opportunities, and listen to the feedback that you are given. So, um, [00:40:00] people are speaking all the time, but the question is, are you listening?

[00:40:04] Rochelle Ramathe: And I do think it should be anonymous, because I do think people are consequenced a- and, um, treated unfairly if they share their truth. 

[00:40:14] Rita Burke: I hear you. I see you. I feel you. There's no question that they need to listen, and we all need to listen.

[00:40:23] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes.

[00:40:23] Rita Burke: Now, before we wrap our wonderful conversation up that we're having with you, Rochelle, tell us a little bit about heartfelt leadership.

[00:40:34] Rochelle Ramathe: Mm-hmm. Please. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now, I don't wanna be focused on gender for a moment, but I do think that, that there's some value in this idea of intuition, and gut feeling, and emotion. And I do think sometimes the masculine way of doing leadership might be, um, a little bit more... It, it's [00:41:00] not necessarily focused on the heart.

[00:41:02] Rochelle Ramathe: It might be, um, focused on maybe logic. It might be focused on what the numbers are saying. It might be focused on the economic bottom line. But I think heart work and heart leadership is about the recognition that we're working with people. And because we're working with people, then I think it's important to prioritize the things that connect us heart to heart.

[00:41:26] Rochelle Ramathe: We have to remember that people are human beings and not human doings. So we need to focus on this aspect of being. And when you lead from your heart, you're focused on the fact that we are beings and not doings. 

[00:41:43] Ellington Brown: I kinda like that, saying. In fact, I, I am a Toastmaster, and I think I'm going to borrow that and use that as a theme for a upcoming presentation.

[00:41:55] Rita Burke: Mm. 

[00:41:56] Ellington Brown: I wanna thank you so much, , Rochelle, for [00:42:00] stopping by and actually having a conversation which I found absolutely invigorating! We had the opportunity to talk a little bit about your personal and professional journey, your expertise in, uh DEI, and also your educational contributions.

[00:42:22] Ellington Brown: We got to touch on that just a little bit. We talked about wellbeing and professional development, and the things that we can do in order to keep our minds and bodies, healthy. And we also had an opportunity just to talk to you in general before the, before our actual, recorded conversation, and it's been delightful. And, the next book that you write, please let us know. 

[00:42:53] Ellington Brown: Yes ... 

[00:42:53] Ellington Brown: so that I can have more time to read it. I, you know? And it was really hard for me not [00:43:00] to ask you some mo- more questions about this book, because I'm reading it, and as I'm reading it, I'm writing the questions down.

[00:43:07] Ellington Brown: And then when I, you know, looked up, I went, "Oh, I can't ask all these questions because then no one will buy the book." So. But, uh, I, I enjoyed, uh, reading your book, Bl- uh, Black Faces in White Spaces. Um, I am going to get the other one that you, that you, you mentioned about being able to get that degree. Yes.

[00:43:30] Ellington Brown: That also I think it's needs, um, in order to pursue our endeavor. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much for, uh, being with us this afternoon, and we definitely want you to come back. Uh, Rita- Thank you ... do you want to add to that? 

[00:43:49] Rita Burke: No. Um, we've had a delightful time listening to your presentation, and I must say that I concur with everything that you said.

[00:43:59] Speaker 2: Mm. 

[00:43:59] Rita Burke: And I [00:44:00] haven't been able to get a hold of your books, but you know what? I, I think this is the time for me to get it. You might. But let me, let me ask a quick, quick question. You are a presenter. Yes. How did you learn to public speak? 

[00:44:14] Speaker 2: Yeah. You know what? As I mentioned in terms of a, my strength, it is actually always been my strength, and then much like you, Elton, I ended up, um, going to Toastmasters as well.

[00:44:28] Speaker 2: And then of course, because of my profession in terms of my first job being an English language leader in South Korea, then I had to learn to pronounce my words and be a little more simple with the way I speak. And so I would say all of those things, um, put together has made me speak the way that I do.

[00:44:49] Speaker 2: But I do wanna also add for anyone who wants a copy of my book, it is on Amazon, so you would just wanna put my name, Rochelle Ramate. When you put [00:45:00] my name, then you'll be able to see all three books. And I'd love for you to follow me on social media. On LinkedIn, it's Rochelle Ramate. Instagram, it's Rochelle Ramate, and also Facebook, it's Rochelle Ramate.

[00:45:17] Speaker 2: So I hope you'll be able to follow me. And last of all, my website is www.rochellespeaks.info. 

[00:45:26] Ellington Brown: By the way, uh, we all, the three of us are Toastmasters. 

[00:45:32] Ellington Brown: We've been-

[00:45:32] Rochelle Ramathe: Oh, nice ... 

[00:45:33] Ellington Brown: a little longer than I have, we're in good company. 

[00:45:36] Rochelle Ramathe: We are!

[00:45:39] Ellington Brown: Thank you. Okay. So, um, um, th- thank you, thank you, thank you, and, um, please, please come back!

[00:45:47] Rochelle Ramathe: Yes, yes. Thank you so much, Elton. Thank you, Rita, for having me, and thank you so much for this platform for others to hear voices and experiences that we might not [00:46:00] have heard. 

[00:46:01] Ellington Brown: Thank you for tuning in to SpeakUP! Exclamation Point International. If you wish to contact our guest, Rochelle Ramathe, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Rochelle Ramathe, at linkedin.com. Ms. Ramathe has other social media accounts you can use to connect to her that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms.

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