[00:00:10] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! Today, we have with us Mr. Dennis Dumpson, and he is going to read a excerpt from his book, Aloos: Freeing the Collective Black Body from Economic Lynching. Mr. Dumpson, the virtual floor is yours. 

[00:00:39] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Thanks so much, Elton. Thanks, Rita. Um, so I'm gonna read a piece from the introduction, uh, with, uh, very quickly.

Uh, to be Black in America is to endure a thousand cuts, deep cuts, shallow cuts, pricks and punctures to our names, our bodies, and our minds, our minds, and our culture from outside and inside the collective Black body. We have arrived at a terrifying juncture in late-stage capitalism. The physical and psychological cutting of the Black body has been monetized like never before.

It is no longer just that every Black body is cut, it is that every body gets a cut from every cut to a Black body. Anchored in Cedric Robinson's framework of racial capitalism, I coined this term and wrote this book to expose the Black pain economy, a parasitic social contraption that generates hundreds of billions annually by converting Black trauma into America's most reliable cash cow.

Our pain is w- is woven so tightly into the contours of this country that even righteous advocacy is structurally forced to trade on the wounds laid on Black bodies to survive. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, it is within this financial choke hold that right-wing demonism, radical liberation rhetoric, and the many morally impoverished contributors in between are incentivized to commodify our deficit, anguish, and con- and conflict.

They are courting our disaster as a key to their revenue models, fattening themselves on the extraction while adding value to their very, to the very thing set to destroy us. 

[00:02:15] Rita Burke: Mr. Dumpson, more, more, more! The voice you have just heard reading from his book is none other than Dennis Maurice Dumpson.

He's the founder of Invest BLK and an author who has raised and directed over $125 million in capital, which impacted thousands of lives. He's a strategist at the intersection of racial equity, philanthropy, and AI ethics. Dennis created the Mud Code and specializes in helping leaders to move past performative gestures.

He's currently working on his doctoral studies that explores racial battle fatigue. There's so much more that I can say about Dennis Maurice Dumpson. However, as we say on SpeakUP International, we prefer if our guests tell their own stories. And so I welcome you to SpeakUP International, Dennis Maurice Dumpson 

[00:03:33] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Thank you so much, Rita! Thank you, Elton. I'm glad to be here. I'll give a brief background, uh, from some of the things that may not be in what the beautiful reading of the bio was, uh, so I appreciate you. Um, so m- I'm from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Uh, I am a 40-something, um, fundraiser and business major turned r- Black radical.

You know what I mean? To whatever extent. Um, I went to school at the nation's first degree-granting HBCU, which is Lincoln University of Pennsylvania, um, where I attended. I started school there, I guess, 27 years ago and, um, I now am, um... What's one of the greatest joys of my life, uh, having attended there. I then went to get my MBA in corporate finance from St. Joseph's University in Philadelphia, where I had a chance to study in South America through multinational corporations, uh, through a corporate residency, um, in Santi- Santiago, Chile and São Paulo, Brazil, and I'm currently at the University of Lynchburg finalizing a doctorate, um, in AI ethics and technology.

Uh, but all of that meets me at where, you know, all of those points kind of tell the story of where I'm at. And the reason why I kind of start with my academic story is because it leads into why I discuss, uh, Black economies, why I discuss Black people and Black culture, why I am, uh, thoughtful about this new age of AI and the ethics that are needed to be able to protect people and be able to create human-centered environments.

Uh, so that's the kind of rich story that I'm always weaving. Um, much more to share, but I'm sure as we have conversations, I'll be able to, to all- uh, allude, uh, allude to more 

[00:05:18] Ellington Brown: Thank you for the, extra information and the personal, touch you've given to our presentation, our podcast this afternoon.

Tell us a little bit about the framework. When you're talking about the MUD Code- Mm ... as a leadership framework, what is that? 

[00:05:45] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah, no, I appreciate you asking. So, um, I've actually been on a doctoral journey prior to this for probably the past... At the pa- by, when I graduate next year, it'll be a se- 66 or seven-year journey.

I was in a, previously in a PhD pro- program that focused on social justice, and during that time I started to think about, what does leadership models look like for Black leaders like myself? I wanted to be able to excavate, like, if the history, uh, tells us a story. I'm gonna start with the title a little bit.

So MUD is, uh, considered to be one of the earliest technologies. It's the thing that has built homes. It's the things that's been a part of immunization for young babies. It's been something that's been critical to every early invention that we've seen that has led to, like, the technological advancements we have today.

And the word code, uh, and, you know, uh, reaches out to AI, to so many of the, like, computer technologies that we have today. And the reason why I chose that name is because I wanted to create an instant, um, competitive binary. You know, mud and code, what do these things have in common? But The Mud Code actually uses, uh, the history of Black radical traditions across 500 years.

I take six case studies, so we're not going through every- every one. But from 1526 when the first Black revolution, um, on American soil happened, when Africans were stolen from their land, um, and brought to, uh, the, the, what we now know as the United States by colonizers, colonizers from Europe. They revolted, and it was actually the first point of enslavement, but was also the first point of revolt.

And that's actually 500 years this year, and in August, August the 9th will be the, is the exact date of the revolt. So, um, because of that, I wanted to think, well, what are the history points and the plot points? And from that moment to the Black Panther Party, to Ida B. Wells and the start of, like, uh, anti-lynching campaigns, to so many other things throughout time, Black Lives Matter in 2015.

There are so many plot points that give us history on not just struggle, but also on leadership. So a big part of the dynamics that I bring to bear in The Mud Code is thinking of Black history, not in the, in the tension of struggle and pain, but thinking of it in the tension of leadership and values, and how that can be used to inform leadership today.

So the framework that I'm developing as a part of my treatise, uh, which is similar to, like, a dissertation, uh, to gradu- when I graduate, will be focused on presenting that leadership framework to the world, and I'll have yet another piece of documentation to add to my book list of things that I've written, so.

And if any other details I can share too. Uh, 

[00:08:23] Rita Burke: I am certainly thrilled

that Elton asked that as his first question, uh, for you to explain Mud Code, because I was kind of thrown off balance as well when I saw the term. But, uh, I hear you loud and clear when you say it's the first experience with technology for humankind. Is that what you said?

[00:08:47] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah. The earliest form of technology is mud. Yeah. 

[00:08:50] Rita Burke: Makes sense. Makes sense. Makes sense. And 

[00:08:52] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: We didn't have anything else. We had the land. 

[00:08:54] Rita Burke: Yes. Now, tell us how you are connected to Lincoln University, please. 

[00:09:02] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: So, uh, Lincoln is... First of all, I'll start with something that actually will, you know, I find it interesting.

Lincoln was n- not my first choice of schools to go to. Uh, it was not even my second or my third. I had been accepted. I knew I wanted to go to an HBCU, um, and I got accepted to an HBCU in Atlanta, um, but my mom was just so nervous. We didn't have a, a ton of money, so my mom was so nervous about me going down there and not being able to get back home, or if something happened, me being too far away.

So then I found a HBCU in DC, and then I didn't have enough money to afford it. So then I was like, "What am I gonna do?" But I had paid them the... I had worked during the summer, and I paid them for, um, you know, the entry fee. It was like $200 or something at that time, and it was non-refundable. So I'm like, "What am I gonna do?

I don't have another $200." So I, um... And I didn't wanna tell my mom, 'cause she said, "This doesn't look like you get all the money." And I'm like, "You don't know it, Mom." Like, "I'm- I got this. I have this under control." I had nothing under control. So I, I wind up, my uncle, uh, my great-uncle, who is Dr. James R. Dumpson, he was the first, uh, Black commissioner of New York City, as well as being the, um, one of the first, uh, one of, if not the first diplomat to a foreign country, um, in America.

His name is Dr. James R. Dumpson. I'm gonna speak his name loudly. Uh, he was the oldest living graduate at that time of Cheyney University, and I did not wanna go to Cheyney. I wanted to go to Lincoln. Uh, but I had a full scholarship to Cheyney, and I just, I just refused. I wanted to go somewhere different.

So it was like, I called Lincoln, and I called up to the school, and I spoke to a lady named Abena Mallett, and I was going in there calm, but as soon as I got in there, the anxiety just dripped. Like, I'm like, "I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know, I don't know if you can accept me," blah, blah, blah, with this and that and all this other stuff.

And she said, "Calm down. We got you." And within an hour, everything was straight, and I was ready to leave for Lincoln. And I mention that story because God has a way of making it all right. You know what I mean? Like, I can't imagine having been anywhere else, and I mean that honestly. You know what I mean?

As a 17-year-old, you think you wanna go to the, the big-name thing. You wanna do the big things. And, you know, you can want that, but sometimes just let the life flow, and it flowed me to Lincoln, and it's been one of the things, my voice, the kind of... The things that I feel like I'm most respected f- respected for, my voice and my energy and my love for Black people and, and our culture, is, um, directly from my family and my community, and Lincoln is at the top of that list.

So that's my relationship to Lincoln. 

[00:11:34] Ellington Brown: Boy, do I have some fond memories of Lincoln and, Cheyney State. I have a lot of friends that went there, of course, fond memories. You talked earlier about this performative trap. So I'm assuming that this trap is helping l- leaders get past the performative gestures.

So what are those signs that, a leader, would n- need to look at and/or so that they don't wind up getting caught in this trap? 

[00:12:15] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah. I think, you know, well, in America, in the US, everything is a trap . Like, this is a, this is a, a nasty web, just to be very clear. So it's hard to, it's, it's hard to escape it.

You know what I mean? It's hard to miss it. So, so the question of, like, you know, how can you miss it? It's, it's almost impossible. You know, we all get caught up in it. We all are, are woven into it from capitalism to white supremacy, like we're all linked in some way to these things, whether we choose to or not, and that's the worst part about it.

Uh, one of the things that I bring up in this trap is the pressure that it puts on the body, and that's, uh, I'm using a term that is coined by Dr. William A. Smith, uh, out of the University of Utah, I believe, um, currently. But he, uh, coined this term called racial battle fatigue, and racial battle fatigue, uh, suggests that, well, if you remember in the earlier part when I was reading from Oluse, that it's like those silent pricks, those things that happen.

And even if I could do something with both of you, if you don't mind, if we could close our eyes for, like, two seconds, all right? And I'm gonna ask you just to clear your mind out, see your things or whatever, right? What do you feel right now while your eyes are closed?

[00:13:28] Rita Burke: For me, very relaxed 

[00:13:30] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Feel relaxed? Uh-huh. What about you, Elton? 

[00:13:34] Ellington Brown: I feel like I need a map at, at hand. 

[00:13:37] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: You said you need a map? 

[00:13:38] Ellington Brown: I feel like I need a map or something. I feel like I'm in darkness.

[00:13:42] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 

[00:13:46] Ellington Brown: So I need some type of guiding light of sorts- Yeah ... to get out of it. 

[00:13:47] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: So that's what I consider racial battle fatigue to be. It's even when we're in our space where it's nothing else around, we can't see anything else, we have feelings of things, right? We feel the things and the pressure. So you feel like you need a map, "'Cause I need to feel like I gotta get out of this darkness," it's in that. It's the fact of I feel relaxed, I feel good, or whatever.

Whatever those feelings are, you don't have to see it to experience it. So it's a insidious thing, right? It's this thing that happens in the, in the shadows of our lives and our lived experiences professionally, socially, culturally. Um, and in the US, it is so pervasive, and globally, just to be very clear.

But, like, in the US, it's very pervasive that it puts weight on people, um, in a very significant way. One of the things that I write about in th- in Aloos, uh, in my introduction, is an experience that I had. I was an incoming board president, and I was working, and I'm speeding this story up. But I was working with a CEO, um, who was experiencing financial difficulties with an organization.

We were trying to get out of it. I knew fundraising really well, so we were on a journey trying to figure out how we could, you know, get out of that situation. Um, and just, just the weight of it. You know, over time, he always showed up with charisma, he had great, you know, strength, lots of values and integrity, but he died by suicide probably about, you know, six months after things started getting into a, a heavy space.

And I always think about that because it was a watershed moment for me, where there's such a way that we can miss the opportunity to be able to, um, understand what we are experiencing and, I think, be able to react against it. And the trap, as, uh, as you mentioned or whatever, is that we believe that if we mention those things, that, you know, being Black means to be ultimately, you know, end- endlessly durable, and it's just not true.

So I want to be able to, like, reframe our ability to think about, uh, Black culture and Black strength with also a compassionate lens and a sensitivity, uh, to, you know, how we engage with the world. Hope that's answering, too. 

[00:15:56] Rita Burke: I hear you loud and clear, and I'm sure our listeners will as well when you talk about how, how, um, insidious and pervasive that stuff is on us.

And sometimes it takes its toll. So how do we thrive in that kind of environment? 

[00:16:19] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: I, I, you know, I wanna kind of... This is why I'm releasing Aloose, because Aloose, the full title is Aloose, and if anybody is, like, unfamiliar with that term, like, what is aloose, to any extent or whatever, any listeners, uh, in Southern dialect you might say something like, "Turn me loose," right?

You know what I mean? It's a, it's a, a, a form of setting free, right? So Aloose is a declaration. It's a declaration that you don't have the bind. You know what I mean? That the bind is done, that I take away. And that bind isn't just whiteness or white people or white supremacy. It is the bind that sometimes as Black folks we create for ourselves in our attachment to capitalism, and our attachment to these systems that actually are set out to destroy us.

And because of that, the freeing of the collective Black body starts out with this story of, um, what the parasitic environment is of this Black pain economy, but it goes to what a solutions economy can look like. And the freeing is divesting, right? It is resisting the urgency of having to engage in these things that are not benefiting us.

They will destroy humanity, you know what I mean? But they will, they most certainly destroy, you know, uh, Black folks in particular. And if we divest from it, there's so much we can do independent from it, and I just wanna kind of start a conversation around what that looks like. In the US, you know, uh, Black buying power is close to two, $2 trillion annually.

That means Black, uh, buyers as cons- as consumers spend about $2 trillion each year. The interesting part about that, though, is that we have, uh, on average, well, a third of Black households have less than, um, have zero or negative net worth, and more than half have less than $670 in their ac- in their net worth, you know, period.

So if we're putting $2 trillion in, uh, through consumership, not getting paid equitably, not being able to have the same opportunities, it's a cycle of things. And there's so many other things to the, to this Black pain economy, but there is a solution that says we have to divest from it. You actually have to move away from following this trend that this is the way.

There's a way to be able to do things differently, and, um, the- You know, that involves just, like, d- uh, divesting. If I could, I, I wanna mention another historical point that I think is helpful, and I hope I'm not long-winded. But, uh, in history, there's a group of Black folks that's, that formed colonies in Jamaica and Brazil and the United States called the Maroons.

And in Jamaica, uh, one of the major, uh, people, uh, who did that was this woman named Queen Nanny. Um, and Queen Nanny, she's on the $500 bill in Jamaica, but was also seen as almost, like, uh, a producer of witchcraft, right? Because, but it was because of her revolt, her resistance. You know what I mean? The resistance of so many others.

And that was in the United States, it was in Brazil, it was in the Caribbean, all these things. But they're, we oftentimes frame that Black folks were not, um, that were for it, that we just were docile in some way. You know what I mean? That we were just falling in line, and that was never the case. From the very beginning, people created land and, and homes in swamps and turned them into new spaces.

When we see the Gullah region in South Carolina. You know what I mean? When we see so many different things, they've taken the, the le- the least of what was there, whatever, and created a new life. And I just urge us all to think about what does new life look like outside of this frame of Americana, um, in a, in the Americana in, in this state.

But, like, outside of the broader, you know, influence of white supremacy more globally 

[00:19:47] Ellington Brown: Talk to us about the 125 million perspective. 

[00:19:54] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Well, you know what? It's so interesting. That's been, like, my... I almost wanna take it off my bio at this point. It's very impressive, you know what I mean? I, I admit, and, um, I've worked very hard for it or whatever, like, that I have got my own battle fatigue because of it.

But the, um, that is... I, I've worked as a fundraiser for years, and my start in fundraising, I was working with a, a order of Roman Catholic nuns, um, in outside of Philadelphia in a, what we call, an area called the Main Line, which is, like, one of the more affluent areas in the country. Um, and I worked over there, and, um, we, you know, were meeting wealthy people, and I just did not understand why the conversations we had about communities of color or poor communities had to be so different than when we talked about wealthier economies.

You know what I mean? I didn't understand what that was, so my journey into fundraising was specifically to think about, how can I create a new narrative, an equitable narrative? So that 125 million, while it is very valuable, uh, what I also shape is, is that it's influenced probably more than 100,000 lives, and actually could probably, that number could be larger, but that's a modest number of, like, students, of communities, of business owners, et cetera.

So that's where the 125 million comes from, and that's the, the kind of story of how I got into fundraising. 

[00:21:18] Rita Burke: It seems to me as if your life is grounded in creating a new life. And you are correct, we are a people who are capable of doing that. And I like the fact that you mentioned the Maroons and Nanny.

As a matter of fact, there's a book about her on my bookshelf, so I'm really impressed. I'm really, really impressed. Talk about a time then when you were given a bit of advice, a piece of advice. Who was the person who gave you that advice, and what did they tell you? 

[00:21:56] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: So, um I, I used to work with my uncle. I mentioned another uncle, uh, Dr.

James Dumpson, but I have another uncle named Dr. J. Donald Dumpson. Uh, and I like to say everybody's name as much as I can. Um, but he was- he gave me one of my first jobs. You know, he had, he had a production company. He's a classical pianist, uh, you know, is a producer, et cetera, et cetera, all these things.

And, um, he had a production company and produced a really large concert, set of concerts in Philadelphia, and I would work with him every summer. And during one summer, he... I hope he doesn't- wouldn't mind me sharing this, but anyway, it's, it's th- 25 years ago, so maybe it might not be that big of a deal. But he was, um, not happy with what the payment was or something to that end or whatever, and he said he wasn't signing anything until he got, like, details, uh, done or whatever.

And I had wind up dropping things off, so I was almost like a courier, like I was doing everything he needed me to do. So I walked down the street, and walked down Broad Street to this big building where the, the, you know, top folks were at, and was dropping off a piece of mail of some kind. Uh, um, this is back in the day before, you know, was, email wasn't good enough, faxes wasn't do- You had to, like, hand people things.

Um, and I had, uh, walked over there, and one of the people that was there kind of said something like, "You know, what's going on? Like, why isn't this signed? Like, is something happening?" Kind of, like, cornering me. I'm like, "I don't know. I mean, ah, this and that," or whatever like that. I, I'm a teenager, you know what I mean?

I'm just kind of, like, trying to make my way. I went back and I kind of, like, shared with him like, "Hey, like, is this worth it? Like, why do you feel like you need to, um, engage in this way and kind of, like, be, like, so hard-nosed, you know, about it?" And I don't... I might paraphrase this incorrectly, like, the words, but this is the intent.

He basically said, told me, like, "Don't play with people, and don't let people play with you." And the reason why that is so important is because it sets up a boundary, one, but it also sets up a, an expectation. And I think the greatest thing that I've had from a piece of advice is that because sometimes we forget to have an expectation for ourselves.

You know what I mean? Have an expectation for how people treat us, how we treat ourselves, how we want to show up in the world, and to be able to know at an early place whether people disagree or don't dis- or agree or disagree or whatever, you have to have an expectation for yourself. You own that, you know?

And then the don't play with people and let people with you. He produced great work. You know what I mean? He produced the greatest work or whatever. So if I'm doing all the things I have to do, if I'm coming and I'm showing up, why can't I have an expectation? Why can't I hold things up for you to be able to take me seriously?

Why is my dignity an interruption, you know, to any way or whatever? And I think that that level of, like, advice has grounded me not to be hard-nosed about every situation, 'cause you, sometimes your ex- expectations won't be met. You know what I mean? That's just the reality. But to be able to be dedicated to the idea that you deserve to have them, that you deserve to have an expectation, is powerful.

So that's the greatest piece of advice. I say it at every time I speak anywhere, I'm, like, mentioning that that's the thing. Don't play with people, and don't let people play with you 

[00:25:03] Ellington Brown: Good advice! Very, very good advice! I, when you were giving it, I, all I could do was smile, 'cause it's, it does ring true Okay.

You lived in Brazil? Is that correct? 

[00:25:21] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Well, uh, kind of a no. But, uh, we did our corporate residency for grad school, and I was doing my MBA- 

[00:25:26] Ellington Brown: Ah ... 

[00:25:27] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: in Santiago, Chile, and in, um, uh, São Paulo, Brazil. So we were there for about just under a month. So did I live there? Yeah, but like- 

[00:25:34] Ellington Brown: Yeah ... 

[00:25:35] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: not really. 

[00:25:35] Ellington Brown: Yeah, but no.

[00:25:36] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. 

[00:25:39] Ellington Brown: So what did you observe about, the global, interaction between Black and other, groups i- in those parts of the, of the world? 

[00:25:54] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah. I think in Brazil, the one thing that I remember distinctly is we went to, uh, go to the Volvo, I think it was Volvo, uh, plant that they had in Brazil, and right visible from the Volvo place was favelas.

And those are like, um, uh... It would be almost like, uh, I don't, I don't wanna disrespect anybody's things, but almost would be like a housing project development type of thing. And I don't, I don't... I might be getting terminology wrong, so I apologize. No disrespect intended. But they are things where at the bottom of the favela, it's almost like they go into a valley.

At the bottom is where people that are, probably have the least means live, and then at the top are those who have maybe more means. But the whole situation is one that is, you know, not, um... It's, it's a caste, you know, essentially or whatever to some extent. And it was right across from Volvo, and I met a man who was on the assembly line, um, and he had said, uh...

He said he lived in there. And I said, "Oh, wow," but he was, like, running everything. So my immediate thought, you know what I mean, uh, and this is also 15 years ago, so whatever. But, like, my immediate thought was, "Well, why are you living there if you're working here? Like, is this by choice? Is it by chance? Like, what's the thing?"

And he said, "It's hard to leave there living here." And I didn't know what that meant, but over time I think it's made more sense to me. It's kind of crystallized, 'cause, you know, I don't know what that meant for him. But what I think is, is that it's hard to be able to make, um, the great escape that I think sometimes we think wasn't as valuable to him as being able to give back to the area in which he was, was, was in.

And if that's true, that's something that, that level of integrity is something I think we can learn a lot from globally. You know what I mean? That he had this really, really cool job. He's working with all these new technologies. He was the one that was telling us we couldn't go places 'cause he o- he was the only person that could enter in the rooms.

I'm like, "Whoa, this guy is a big deal it seems like," right? And, like, why would y- why is that important? And I think it shapes a lot for me too, that we put a lot of, um, pressure, you know, on when you get, you, you move, right? But, like, when you get, you grow actually is something different. You know what I mean?

If I get more, let me grow something new. Let me build something new. And I think that's what it seemed like he was doing, taking his knowledge, taking his income, all the things, and moving that forward. So that's one of the biggest experiences that I think I've always kind of like kept with me, um, over time 

[00:28:25] Rita Burke: Sounds like that experience with that particular person was a growing and actualizing experience for you. You, you obviously learned a lot from him 

[00:28:36] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Most certainly! 

[00:28:36] Rita Burke: Now, in your bio, you talk about culture heals and I was struck by that statement. I want you to expand a little bit on it for us, please 

[00:28:49] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah. I, um, Denzel Washington, and I, I always come up with these things. They resonate with me, but I can't remember them verbatim, so like I'm, I'm gonna mess it up a little bit.

But he had a quote where he said something to the effect of like Spielberg is a great director. You know what I mean? Uh, so was Spike Lee, right? But Spielberg cannot... can bring great cinema to The Color Purple, right? Which is a movie that he directed. But he won't be able to bring culture, and that's the distinct difference, right?

And he mentions this example of, um, you know, when the hot comb gets on the, on the fire, and it gets a little bit of grease on it, and you put it on the hair, and that sizzle. You know what I mean? Or that thing or whatever like that. Those things are the things that are culturally nuanced. And the reason why that's healing is because when I think about my Easters, though I wasn't getting my hair, you know, pulled out, straightened, or whatever, that was a signature part of like Easter Sunday.

You know? So Easter Saturday was people getting ready, getting your stuff together, boiling eggs in a certain way or whatever, getting your hair, smelling the hair being done. You know what I mean? All the other things. And that culture heals because as time is going on for me, I never would've expected when I was younger that the people that I, that had fulfilled me, my grandmother Lucille Dumpson, my Aunt Rosalie Johnson, uh, so many other people, uh, would not be here today.

So when I think about that, they left culture. That should be a point of grief solely, right? Like just sad that they're not here, but it actually is a reminder about how important the day is, and I think the fabric between morning and night is the most beautiful portion of like covering that we can have.

And if we take that example and say that culture allows us to be able to reinforce how important today is, it actually is something that is resonant, uh, that resonates throughout our lives, and it... that's a healing fabric for us. You know what I mean? It's something that can really change the way we see the world and change the way that we actually navigate when we take seriously how our history can be a part of our future.

So that's why I say culture heals

[00:30:56] Ellington Brown: Unreasonable challenges this happens to be a thing where I guess how the distribution of wealth it is not fair. It is not fairly distributed. How do you see businesses, Black businesses hold onto their wealth so that when the redistribution happens, whether it's from within or external, h- how do we cope?

How do we cope with that? Because right now we're, we're going through that right now. 

[00:31:38] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think one thing I wanna mention, um, and this is a part of the book too, I don't think we've yet feel- found out as Black people, as the collective Black body, right? I don't necessarily know if we found out what it feels like to be full and what to do when you are full.

And I give an example. Um, I'm a person of, in a fat body, right? So I give an example that I've overeaten before and, you know, at the time it feels good, and you've done your thing or whatever, then you get a tummy ache, right? You know, and you're like, "Oh my God, I'm not gonna do that again." Then you wind up doing it again.

You know what I mean? But I use that as a, as an example to be able to say We collectively, as Black folks, need to be able to understand when we have enough and what to do with the excess. You know what I mean? Like, fasting is not just the point of, like, being able to stop doing a thing. It's to redistribute the energy, right?

To redistribute the, the, the, the, the ways in which we engage with something. And I don't think we figured that out the way that we need to. We're so en- enamored by billionaires, and we're so enamored by millionaires and people who've done this and that because we've experienced so much lack and so much bias and so much unreasonable challenges, so many unreasonable challenges, that I think it's, it's hard for us to be able to understand when we are full.

And if we know when we are full, then we have the ability to do something with the excess. With Invest Black, the racial equity company I started in 2019, uh, I couldn't do it in the first two years, but after that, I started doing a thing called the Black and Empty Fund. And Black and Empty, uh, which is also called BAE, B- B- B-A-E, um, is that was to be able to give whatever I had excess.

Y- Taxes, all the other things or whatever, give it to somebody else that is able to ne- need it. Because I had to, in building a business, not create a profit maximizing business that was going to be this source of things. And it doesn't mean I don't get a chance to save, it doesn't get a- mean I don't get a chance to build re- uh, generational wealth, it just means that there has to be a limit.

Because that also says that there's a limit for how I, um, engage. You know what I mean? With, with, with my business. You know what I mean? I don't take on every project. I don't feel a need to. I don't do everything. I don't feel like I have to hustle to get everything done. What I do feel like is is that when I get more, I go...

And just to the example I gave about the guy in Brazil. When I get more, I'll, I'll be able to grow something. And I think that economic m- shift, that change, change in the way that we see economy takes us to that we're not doing things that are, um, we're not contributing to the same systems that are set to destroy us.

You know what I mean? So I think that that kind of economic shift of people in corporate, but also people in all levels would, would really do us really good, to think about what we could do with the excess. And recognizing that even if we think that the, that we lack so much, that there is excess if we really change the way that we engage with, you know, the world and our worlds.

[00:34:31] Rita Burke: What can we do with the excess? I, I'm not even sure that it applies specifically to us as a group, but it's applies to humanity generally. 

[00:34:40] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Without a doubt! 

[00:34:41] Rita Burke: And I, I really appreciate how you explained the term culture heals. As you explained that, I thought of a song that I heard, and one of the lines in, in there was something was a blanket of love.

Mm-hmm. And I hear that culture heals as that blanket of love, which we need to surround ourselves and to wrap ourselves in that blanket I want you to talk a little bit now about the fact that, you are a race scholar? 

[00:35:18] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yes! 

[00:35:19] Rita Burke: Tell us more about that statement, please. 

[00:35:22] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: So, scholarship is what is gained from what we call the academy, right?

Like, the, uh, academy of people that, uh, are the people that go to learn, research, and discover new knowledge, you know, open up new knowledge. So when you get a PhD or a doctorate, the goal is to be able to expand on new knowledge, something that is not done. We don't go to, uh, contri- we, we might contribute to things that already exist, but we're giving a new frame to it.

So scholars are thinking about not just education, they're thinking about learning. And education is a system, learning is an attitude and a decision, right? So when you go into scholarship, you make a decision. That decision, for me, has been at the intersection of race. So my learning is specifically around how is race, uh, used, misused, leveraged, you know, valued, you know, devalued.

You know what I mean? In the ways in which we move. And my race scholarship focuses on, you'll never see me writing... Like, the book that I wrote, Aloos, could easily be about economics in general, and, like, how we kind of focus on a global American pain economy. You know, it happens broadly. But I am at, I concern myself with Black folks, and with brown folks, and with people of color, and with indigenous people, et cetera.

And race means that I look at that from a, from a, a large perspective of how race actually creates caste in our society, um, and, like, separates us more than it, uh, it grows us together. So that's the, uh, the idea of being a race scholar, is that I can do scholarship about a ton of different things, from fashion to, to style, to, to, to, uh, to e- economics, to, uh, history, but it's always gonna be, uh, e- at least a touch of race and a conversation of race and its, and its dynamics.

Because it is inescapable. You know what I mean? Like, it is something that I think we wanna have these color-evasive conversations where, you know what I mean? I don't see it, it's not there. But it's not real to me. You know what I mean? So I wanna create really authentic work that doesn't, uh, discount how race plays a part in so much of what we see globally in America and beyond.

[00:37:37] Ellington Brown: I'm so tired. I think Black people right now, especially in North America, are g- Black people are going through so much. We're, we're... There is a s- specific force that wants to beat Americans down so that they can proceed with their agenda. And then on top of it, then you've got the, uh, radical fatigue that you have to deal with.

So this is the stress from this government, and then on top of it, you know, whatever else you do, work, uh, associates. It could be from any different perspective. How can Black people find a way to survive and allow themselves to remain aware and not become... What's the word? Um

desensitized to all of what's going on because it would be very easy for, for us to just say, "Okay, you know what? It's too much. Uh, uh, you know, I'm gonna take a vacay day for here and there, and then, you know, I'll come back when, you know, in two years, and let's see how, how things go." So how, how do we pay that cost for having, uh, battle fatigue 

[00:39:22] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah.

I wanna focus on three things. I think this is a great question. One is curiosity, one is, um, consciousness, and the last is coaching. And the first part is being curious because when things happen, I think one of the things, to your point about the apathy that is naturally occurring because of just the exhaustion, like when things are happening like that, there is a curiosity one must carry.

You know what I mean? You have to be curious about not the situation, but the kind of epidemiology, right? Like the, the, the beginning force. Like what is it rooted in? And I think if we start having more curious conversations, we will see that it's not what it is on the surface. I'll use AI as an example.

Oftentimes there's a word that's used that says algorithmic bias, right? Which means that the algorithm is biased and spits out things that are biased to us. So we give a prompt about this and then it gives us that. But it would be inappropriate to say that it's the bias of white men who are predominantly the programmers of this that have influenced this or whatever.

But it would be inappropriate to say that because it, but it, but it, it gives an, it ev- it evades the actual, um, conversation of being able to say that this is still racialized, right? And I think because we have so many instances of things happening where, um, the, the, the domestic majority or whatever have created space for them to be able to evade accountability.

And I think if we're in that, then we recognize that so much of what is happening isn't a fault of our own. But that takes curiosity to look a little bit deeper. And you know, I use that AI example to be able to say, we say the computers are after us and this and that. No, it's the same white supremacy, it's just a different vehicle.

You know what I mean? Like this isn't computers. Computers aren't... This isn't Terminator. This is white supremacy and racism with a new engine to be able to move through, and we're seeing it in real time. But we are, we're positioning ourselves to consider this as something new, new, and it's not new. It's the same old thing.

The devil ain't got no new tricks, right? And the reality is, is that that is where we're at. The next thing is about consciousness, right? Because when we are moving from curiosity, we have to gain clarity, but then we get a point that we just get consciousness, and that's where the fatigue happens. James Baldwin has a quote that says, "To be a, a, a Negro in America and to be relatively conscious is to be in a constant state of rage."

So that's the, that's the reality that at a certain point we are always just kind of inundated with it. So that consciousness actually is our, our gift and also the curse. Because being conscious of all these things just keeps you weighed down. So when you say, "Elton, I'm tired," it's because you're ultimately very conscious of what's happening.

You see it, you can't avoid it. But the last part is where I think the transition happens, and to answer your question about how do we get out of this and survive, and I actually would say thrive, right? It's coaching. When you know what's going on, when you're curious about what's happening, when you're conscious about the environments, when you're looking at the deeper reasoning behind things.

You know what I mean? When you take a little- More of a scholarship and academic approach to it. In our lived experience, not through school, but like through our lived experience when we take a academic approach and kind of learn the new thing and kind of see what's under the, under the hood of these things, we then have the ability to become coaches.

And I think that that is important because when we start coaching, we have the ability to have new people ask us questions. So then we go right back to curiosity, and when we go right back to curiosity, we, we deepen that knowledge in things of that nature. And we don't just deepen the knowledge of the issue, we deepen the knowledge of how we can develop solutions, and we get ourselves to a point that we build up a, a, a, an allegiance of folks who are interested in the solutions and the issues coming together to be able to get our way out of this and to free us.

So I think to some extent, you know, and you can't get weary in your good doing. You know what I mean? And you have to find your way, you know, through, um, these things or whatever is very important 

[00:43:16] Rita Burke: You, you used the three C words. You talked about curiosity, you talked about consciousness and coaching. So tell me, when does the coaching begin?

And by whom? 

[00:43:32] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's ultimately by the conscious. I think one of the worst things that's happening right now, and, um, I grew up in an environment where elders were revered. And I, I don't say this because I think sometimes when we talk about reverence for elders in this new age, it becomes almost like, uh, uh, almost like profanity, you know what I mean?

To some extent or whatever like that. Because I think it's... I have just recognized that elders were revered not because they get it all right, but because there is something to be said about living through a life, right? And living through an experience. One of the hardest points about where we're at today in society is that we don't understand any ex- we think our experiences today are new, which is why I focus so much on history.

And to answer your question about when does coaching happen, it happens when you gain knowledge that is not just of your own experience. When you can be able to, it, when you can be able to recognize that your, your foundational understanding of race isn't just about how you've experienced race. It hasn't been about how you've been harmed by it or how you see it, but you're looking at it with a global view, a worldview to, to as- to un- understand this.

Then you're ready to teach somebody because you're not just teaching from your gut. It's not just folk wisdom, and now it's an energized understanding from what's happening across a, a, a paradigm of things and of a, a large matrixy of like lived experience. And that has to happen with a, with a connection to our ancestry, to our culture, and to elders.

And I think right now when I see people arguing about things online or, you know, anything else, I'm always kind of like, man, this is happening because there's no elders in the room. There's nobody else here to be able to kind of give some insights. Because so many things that we argue about today or that we have concerns about are not new.

You know what I mean? And there's actually an exit to it if we were able to like listen to somebody that's lived and kind of leave our ego behind and open ourselves up to a, to a different frame. So that's my, my view of like when does coaching happen. I think it happens when we are able to, uh, take ourselves out of it and bring community into it

[00:45:43] Ellington Brown: We were talking earlier about money and how we use money. And that happens to be, I think, one of the challenges for our community is going back to something you said earlier, which was excess. 

[00:46:08] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:08] Ellington Brown: What do we do with excess? 

[00:46:10] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Mm-hmm. 

[00:46:11] Ellington Brown: And so what happens, at least in my family Dad comes home. He's made, you know, an extra 200 bucks, and what does he say?

"Okay, we're all going to Pat's Steakhouse, and we're gonna, you know, we're gonna have cheese steaks, and, you know, uh, french fries, and whatever else, you know. Oh, milkshakes. Can't forget the milkshakes." You know? And, you know, a- and th- and so then, you know, so that's like 100 bucks gone now. Mm-hmm. That was, that was spent.

How do we help our people realize that the, uh, the meaning of the word restraint? 

[00:46:55] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the first thing is is that restraint isn't just in our consumption. It's restraint is also in our, um, in, in, in what we, uh, take and give. You know what I mean? So it's not just about did we get an extra thing?

You know what I mean? Like, or did we do something with the excess that we have? It's also about, like, what are the- our values inside of it? And oftentimes when people, to your example about like, you know, the dad coming home and saying, "We're gonna get cheese sticks," and this, it's a part of the values. I want my family to have something that they enjoy.

I want my family to have something that they, that they, that they can use. I think the shift, though, it's not about I have no judgment on people using money in whatever way they choose to use money or whatever, whatever extent. What I do have a judgment on is that it not being value-based, right? And it not being value-based for more than just yourself.

And I think what I would love for us to do as a community is to stop thinking about our success as individualized only. And I think so much of our success is driven by what we can do independently. I got money. You don't got money. You ask for money. I give money. And it's these things where we create castes and hierarchies continually within Black communities, you know what I mean?

That don't allow us to be able to move. And if we really thought about things like a mutual aid, it would be different. So to use this example that you used of, like, the father coming home, what would be different there if instead of, you know, doing that, the f- the father opened it up to be able to have his, to teach his children, like, you know, we also wanna buy something for somebody else, and we're gonna support somebody else and give them something else too.

I think even in the one thing, and I use a lot of family anecdotes, so forgive me, uh, for that or whatever. But my grandmother... I'm fr- I, I grew up in a church called the AME Church, African Methodist Episcopal, and, um, it's one of the oldest churches in the country. It was founded in Philadelphia. And my grandma was, uh, I think, this may not be true, but I've always said this, so I'm keeping up with it, like the first person to start an HIV and AIDS ministry, um, in, uh, the First District of the AME Church in Philadelphia At, at our church, Greater Mount Olive.

Her name was Lucille Dumpson. And when she did this, she, um, she said, "You know, I wanna get to the people." And it was a hospital called Graduate Hospital up the street from our church, and people had, you know, uh, HIV or they had AIDS, and they were... They didn't have housing or they didn't... Things just weren't, you know, available to them and we didn't have the medical ability to be able to support them.

And there was this one person, um, I assume a man, uh, who used to come into the place and he had, like, his fingernails were painted, right? And he used to, um, and he had, like, a hair clip on his hair. His hair was just, like, brushed back or whatever, and he had a hair clip on his hair. And when he would come in, the people in my church would say, you know, he was...

They looked for my grandma 'cause my grandma, you know, wanted to support him. And then they would go and say, like, you know, "Lu, don't be there. He's gonna put a needle in you," or, "He's gonna do this and that." And she would, like, be like, "Mm," like, "No, that's not true. Uh, let me go down there," whatever. She's like, "Denny's gonna come there with me."

I'm Denny. And she would go down there. But I'm, like, six or seven, and I would go downstairs. And this is the '80s, right? And I would go downstairs and I would go into where I would, like, run, and she would give him things. And he would just feel so secure in that moment. But that is mutual aid, right? Like, that is the way that we...

When you have a little bit. She had a thing full of, full, a room full of clothing, full of canned goods. She got a refrigerator full of things that we're using for this. You know, "You got a stove at home?" "Yeah, I got a stove." "You got a pot?" You know what I mean? "No, I ain't got no pot." "Here's a pot and here's a pack of chicken, and here's four potatoes, and this is a can of string beans.

Make it. Now make it work." He's like, "Oh, no, I know what I'm gonna do with this, Miss Lu." That, that thing is what I want us to get back to, but you can't have that if you're not willing to look and investigate a world. If you refuse to be curious about how we can be able to help more than just our own body and the collective Black body.

Elusis freeing the collective Black body. The collective Black body. That's the freedom. Individual freedom means nothing to anybody but yourself. Collective freedom is what will a- be able to save us. Think I'm going off term, so I'm sorry about that. You know, I start talking about my grandma, I go a, I go a little bit further or whatever, but that...

I'll stop there. 

[00:51:05] Rita Burke: Thank you for, thank you for sharing your story about your granny. She sounds like a wonderful woman. 

[00:51:09] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: She was! 

[00:51:10] Ellington Brown: We love g- we love Grandma! 

[00:51:11] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Yeah! 

[00:51:12] Rita Burke: This is SpeakUP! International, and on SpeakUP! International, we seek to inform, inspire, and educate. And there's no question that, uh, Mr.

Dumpson's story is inspiring and educating as well. I want you to think about an opportunity that's given to you to present to a group of graduating Black men, shall we say from a university undergraduate program And then they're coming out of there with questions about, well, let's go back to your, your work, curiosity about how are they going to navigate their world.

What three gems would you want to leave with them? 

[00:51:59] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Mm, so good. Um, just give me a couple seconds just to think about that, 'cause that's worthy of, like, a little bit of a pause

So the first thing is to open yourself up to see and be seen. And I think as you said, specifically Black men, so I think particularly as Black men, there is a way in which, uh, the, the, the trappings of masculinity as a fortress and a shield, um, distance us from our ability to be able to be seen fully and to see fully, right?

Ex- an example of that would be, you know, you are, you know, you, you see people and they're outside and there's a theme that goes around where people say, "No homo," right? Because they wanna make sure that their, that their ideas of masculinity are secure at all points. What that means is is that if there's no homo, that means you're discounting a whole group of people.

I want to be able to see a world where Black men are free enough to be able to see a world, open themselves up, to open ourselves up to being able to experience a world, whether you are a part of it intimately or not, to be able to see a world and open yourself up to a world that's bigger than just your experience, and conversely, to be able to open yourself to be seen fully.

I think there are sometimes myopic ways in which Black men and Black women are seen, you know, and in Black men's case, as providers and, you know, to get your money together and to do this and that, and it doesn't necessarily add value to the person, and we lose humanity. Uh, the second thing I would suggest is to, um, to, to build more.

Like, I think there is a way in which we, uh, can do more, and Black men build a lot, but there is a way that we can build more, uh, collectively. Um, and when I say build, I don't mean houses and, and, you know, buildings. I mean build more. You know what I mean? Like, to build spaces that answer some of these pervasive questions.

And as Black folks, I think we're always in such a crisis of the times that we sometimes don't have the ability to build, and I just wanna... I would give a group of graduates the, uh, the charge to, to think about what they are gonna build for the collective Black body. Then the last thing I would say is to find joy, find happiness, and find fun, because this world will take your joy away.

It will make you feel like happiness is not owed to you, and will make you feel like fun is a distraction from you having to do this critical work. And I think if we can get to a place that, um, we can have access to those joys, we can actually be in a better place. So those are my three off the top, like, kind of, you know, thoughts

[00:54:53] Rita Burke: Well, I really am happy that you included the word joy, because somewhere in my question that I was gonna say to you, are we entitled to any joy in this world? And I know that we are on this earth to also enjoy being here. So I am glad you included that in your presentation to these Black men. But I have one last question, and I want to know what a perfect day looks like for you from beginning to end.

It may not include being on SpeakUP! International. 

But what's a perfect day looks like for you?

[00:55:42] Speaker 2: So I'm gonna have a little merger of things if that's okay or whatever, but I'll, I'll try to not be too labored. Um, first is I, I wanna first share that this perfect day is a day that I sometimes don't give myself. The things that I'm gonna mention aren't things that I don't have access to. It's things that I just don't do in the way that I want to, and I would just wanna have the energy, the spirit, and the intentionality to do them.

And like waking up early and seeing the sunrise, I have big... I live in a, a condo. I have big 16-foot windows, right? And I see across the city and I see all these things, and I don't ever take advantage of it. I wanna take advantage of the life I build to be able to see the world outside. Um, I wanna take a ride over to my m- mom's house and be greeted by all my family and friends and we just in the kitchen cooking breakfast and eating and talking and laughing.

Um, and I think even if that doesn't go into the evening, that's enough. I'd leave the rest up to God because I feel like if I could get comfortable and have that in the morning, I'd be satisfied throughout the rest of the day. You know what I mean? Like I think there's something about being able to have early joy that like sustains you throughout, you know what I mean?

So that's, uh, that would be really beautiful for me. Yeah

[00:57:10] Ellington Brown: I just want to thank you so much for, A, having a great initial conversation, and number two, having even a better conversation with, uh, with Rita and I. We really, uh, appreciate, uh, the things that you brought to our attention. This is one of the pillars of SpeakUP! International is to educate, and you have definitely, uh, stomped all over that, all over that pillow.

Absolutely, excellent. I really love, talking about curiosity versus compliance and how, depending on the perspective and where you're coming from, it could be entirely different and all justifiable. It just means the cost of ... curiosity versus- That's it. Yeah ... c- com- compliance. So we did get a chance to talk about, talk about that.

We talked about the revolutionizing the way of thinking so that we're not caught in that trap, because it's difficult to get out of these, out of these traps. When you're non-melanated, these trap- you know, any little trap you get out of, you know, you, all you have to do is just push and you're out of it. 

You know, for us, you know, we've got to take the shackles off and everything else to get... just so that we can just get ourself in position to try to get out of it. So I, I really want to, thank you, thank you so, so much for, giving us the time to talk to you. And when you write your next book, which we already know you are, so you can't say, "Oh you know, we didn't know about it."

We, we want to hear about this book. We want to talk to you about this book. Um, I, I think it's going to be, uh, again, a part of our educational, uh, collective in order to continue to move forward. And if we can't move forward now, I don't know. Uh, Rita, do you have anything that you wanna add to this, I'm sure?

[00:59:25] Rita Burke: Well, Dennis Maurice Dumpster. We aim to archive the stories of community builders on SpeakUP! International. Yeah. So that ultimately, when other generations are doing their research, they could hear you telling your story- Mm ... and inspiring them. And I have no question that today that will happen from your story.

So I thank you, I thank you, I thank you. I'm glad I met so many of your family members, uncles, aunts, and grannies- ... and everybody else. Thanks for introducing them to us. And you're an amazing storyteller, I appreciate that. 

[01:00:06] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: I appreciate you. If it's okay, if, am I able to say anything else or...? 

[01:00:11] Ellington Brown: No, that's it! You're done. No, go ahead! 

[01:00:15] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: I wanted to say something. There was, um, uh, this is such a beautifully, uh, uh, well-oiled, uh, machine. So we had questions sent prior to and all the other things, not to give, you know, anybody view behind the fourth wall. But one of the questions that you asked, I just wanted to say because I thought about it and I want to speak the names of a few people, uh, that I just don't want to forget, because you do make a great point, Rita, about this being a repository of, you know, the intellect of like community buil- builders, and I, I am birthed from so many people.

One of the questions was, um, uh, what is an experience or a memory to something or whatever that you had? And I thought about it long and hard, and I wanted to share, uh, share it because I think it's just something that's just moved me over time. Um, I was in high school, and I was a very ambitious high school student.

So I was, I was not in a, a, a, you know, like one of the magnet high-performance schools. I was in a neighborhood high school, you know, things. But because of that, like I excelled, right? You know, at a lot of the things that I wanted to do, and I was on every committee. I ran for homecoming king. I won prom king.

I was like newspaper editor. I did like all, everything you can imagine. I even, when I was doing my college applications, I'm not a sports person, but I joined the badminton team so I could take pictures and send them with my application because, you know, we printed them out so that would look like that was happening.

So I was very ambitious. Um, and I had went to the graduation for my cousin who graduated two years before me, and I was just looking at everything, how everything was done. And, um, the, uh, and it's the most eye, eye-opening experience. And what... Uh, I went there. I saw everybody wearing these things, which were National Honor Society's like, uh, little badges around their cap and gowns.

And I asked them, I said, "What's that?" I never saw it before. I didn't know what it was. And they said, "Oh, that's the National Honor Society. Those are like the smartest people in the school." And I was like, "Why don't I got a thing? Where, where do I get mine from?" So I'm like going to do it, and I move forward.

So I didn't get in my junior year, and I didn't know why. And I was like, "Okay, well," you know, I had good grades, so I was just like, you know, "What's the thing or whatever?" So I knew they were gonna do the vote. I found out all the, the inner workings. The teachers come together. They have a group meeting and, you know, but if one teacher votes you out, you can't be a part of it, right?

Or like one or two teachers, something like that to that end. And there were two, maybe three, uh, white teachers that did not want me to be in it. They said I had a bad attitude. They said that I was, um- I'm not a good representation of this national honor, right? Uh, despite my grades, despite meritocracy, right?

Like, that was what they said. And there was a group of Black w- And I had been campaigning, just to be really clear. Like, I'm ambitious. Like, I'm talking to people. I'm like, "So you're gonna... You, you know what to do when you get in that room, right? Like, you know, when you get into the ballot box, you put my name in there, right?"

So the teacher went in. They were like, "Dennis, you don't gotta do all this." That's what they kept saying to me, the teachers, the Black women. Um, and I was- I knew it was the day, and I was working in the office. That was one of my school jobs. I worked in our s- our school office, and they called me to come up.

I forgot how it was, but they called me on, I think maybe it was intercom or whatever, and I got... And told me get on the elevator. So you know, when you get on an elevator, that's a big thing. Like, so you had to walk up the stairs. You're a student. So I get on the elevator and I go to room 530, which was my favorite teacher, Ms.

Roberta Emmanuel, and she was in there with a group of other teachers, Mr. Shields, Ms. Bernie, Ms. Knock, and another lady who was very influential, but I just cannot remember her last name. Um, they were all in a room. So I'm going in there and I'm holding back a smile because I just know that I am about to get the news that I'm in the National Honor Society.

Like, everything is working out, and they wanted to be the ones that told me. That's what I felt like was happening. They wanted to be the ones that told me. But they were there to tell me something more crushing, that two people refused to have me be a part of the National Honor Society. Um, and they were upset.

You know, these teachers, the teachers that refused were white, of course. Um, and they refused to have me be a part of it, and I- told me that, and I thought it was like a joke. I'm like, "Oh, okay." You know, waiting for the like, the, the, the, the actual, the pun to be over. Like, you know what I mean? Like something to happen or whatever, but it wasn't the case.

And I just remember getting really sad once I found out the reality and I started crying. And Ms. Emmanuel said, "You stop that right now." She's like, "You stop that. We have some, we have work to do." And I said, I'm like this, and I had a denim jacket on. I remember wiping my face with my denim jacket. The two women that were in there, Mr.

Shields and this other woman or whatever, were the class sponsors, so they basically chose everything for graduation. Because of that, they said, "You're gonna say a graduation speech for the whole class. You're gonna sit in the front row. You're gonna be the first person to walk down the aisle. You're going to be, uh..."

Th- they changed the frame of everything that was happening. So while whether I had that badge or not, it was going to be acknowledged that I was who I was, and I had never had people outside of my family give me that. And this group of Black women were so impactful To my ability of being able to understand who I am, the reminder, the refusal for tears.

You know what I mean? Not out of, not out of, of, of, of shaming vulnerability, but out of re- reminding me of what, that, that this is not the end of the story. Don't cry over this, 'cause you're gonna actually have a... You're gonna have, actually be able to have more from this. We're working it out. And I think that that was one of the earliest experiences that I had, was being able to understand, um, outside of my family, like my mother, my grandmothers, my aunt, my mother, Adrienne, uh, Dumps and Diggs.

Um, before that, it was just my family, and they were supposed to do that. They were supposed to support. Right. The first time having after that, and it's just been a long history of, like, how I have been supported by the kindness of Black women, um, and the warmth of Black women. Um, and when I wrote my book Blackwashed in 2021, it has 10 forward authors that are all Black women, because I wanted to use that book to be able to have a space for Black women to tell stories that were un- that had nothing to do with anything else but their experience.

And I wanna share one other tidbit to this, because this eye-opening experience is something that is very helpful for me. It's just grown me a lot. During the pandemic, um, my family had a really hard go at it. My stepfather had got really sick. He wound up, you know, essentially dying twice, having to be brought back or whatever in the hospital, all this other stuff.

He's doing very well now. Uh, but, like, at that time it was this. And my mom, we... As everything was happening, I was at my parents' home, and I was, like, trying to, like, tell them, like, you know, "Hey, we gotta do this and we gotta do that," and, you know, we're, everybody's afraid of getting sick, and I hadn't gotten COVID yet, so I'm like, I'm, "I guess I don't know what's gonna happen."

Everything was so scary. And my mom had said something to my stepdad, 'cause he was just, like, not able to, like, move and get up and do everything or whatever. She was like, she said something. And I said, "What are you doing?" I said, "We don't do that." Like, "Don't say that to him," whatever that thing that she said.

And she said, "I'm sorry, Danny, I'm a human." And my response to her was, "You are not a human. You are a wife and a mother." And we let that go and we moved on, and I went downstairs, and I could not believe how I dislocated my mother from her humanity. And it was the first time I recognized that I had never knew, I never knew or I never chose to know that my mother was a human being and a woman And because of that, I did not know my mother.

I loved her, but I loved her because of the way she loved me, and I loved her because of the way that she, um, supported me. And I bring both of those experiences up because one of the big things that I think is incredibly important as we think about the collective Black body is the way in which we, um, honor care, right?

And particularly because of Black women, these are my experiences that I've, that I have experienced. There is a way that we can have an expectation that we are owed care from people, and particularly for Black women in this case, and that's not the case. We're not owed it, we are granted it. And because we are granted it, it doesn't mean that we are creating hierarchies and castes and things of that nature.

It means that we recognize that a human experience, a lived experience, a person that is embodying something spiritual and natural at the same time, has, has that to confront. Before they, before they support us, they have to support something inside of themselves. And I think I wanna just make an urgent plea from this eye-opening experience that has inspired me to be able to think about not what people are able to do for us, but how we can actually be able to support people being able to dig deep into their own humanity, access their humanity, um, especially those that we love enough, um, and we care enough about.

So I bring that up. I just didn't wanna do it... It was an experience, a group of experiences that were really important to me, and I just didn't wanna leave without doing that. But I thank you both for your time and, like, um, offering me the space to be so generously to be able to share, uh, all the, the things that I have on my mind and that I'm doing.

So thank you! 

[01:09:23] Ellington Brown: Yeah, but don't think you're getting a, don't think you're getting out of coming back. 

[01:09:28] Dennis Maurice Dumpson: Oh, no, I don't wanna get out of it. No, that's, that's great. I would love to be back. 

[01:09:33] Ellington Brown: Thank you for tuning in to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact our guest, Dennis Maurice Dumpson, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Dennis Maurice Dumpson on linkedin.com

Mr. Dumpson has other social media accounts you can use to connect to him that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms. Your voice has the power to inspire, influence, and ignite change. We'd love to hear your story. We invite you to connect to us by sending a message that includes your name, company or organization name, the valuable service you offer to your community, and your email address to info@speakuppodcast.ca.

You can also find our new video podcast channel at bit.ly/speakuppodcastvideo. You can find our audio podcast at www.speakuppodcast.ca. Our logo has the woman with her finger pointing up, mouth open, speaking UP! As soon as the website passes inspection, you will be able to gain access to the audio and video versions of the podcast using the following link: www.speakuppodcast.ca.

As a member of our Patreon group, you will gain access to a wide range of exciting benefits. We are working on providing you with early access to new episodes and the opportunity to suggest topics or guests for future episodes. Your contribution of two dollars monthly will not only help sustain the continuity of the podcast, but also allow us to enhance the overall listening experience for all of our dedicated followers.

Help us help you! Don't miss our next episode. Join us again on SpeakUP! International, where we aim to inspire, to inform, educate, and entertain you!

Website: https://www.dennismaurice.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dennismaurice

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmdumpson

Threads: https://www.threads.com/@dennismaurice

Substack: https://www.substack.com/@dennismaurice