[00:00:10] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! 

[00:00:16] Rita Burke: As you know, we traverse the globe finding individuals we consider to be community builders, and today is no exception except that our person, the person we'll be having this conversation with is one of our locals. His name is Roger Dundas, and he's the publisher and founder of ByBlacks.

He is a Toronto-based entrepreneur with a background in marketing, PR, and accounting

Roger's instinct has always been to show up where community needs support. He has partnered with One Vision One Voice in 2019 to develop culturally relevant restaurants for Black families, research, I'm sorry, for Black families, and navigating the welfare system. There's so much more that I can say about Roger Dundas, but as we say on SpeakUP! International, we prefer if our guests tell their own stories.

And so with that, Roger Dundas, welcome to SpeakUP! International. 

[00:01:34] Roger Dundas: Hey, thank you for having me today. I really appreciate it

[00:01:39] Ellington Brown: You know, this is gonna be a great conversation. You know why? Because the sun is shining today! And I don't know about you, but that puts me in a really good mood. So what inspired you to create a platform that caters to Black Canadian stories, and why was that the moment, the Time was right.

[00:02:08] Roger Dundas: Yeah, k- kinda have to go back in history of, um, what I was doing at the time. Uh, in 2010, we started running a publicity marketing firm, and we're representing a diverse background of clients. And one of the things that we noticed was that if we're pitching a client, and the client is non-melanated, and we're pitching them to mainstream media, they would get, I would say, a faster pickup than the, than a melanated client.

And it was very stark. The difference was very stark. So in the newsrooms across the country, at the time, this is 2010, a lot has changed, I will admit that. A lot has changed since then. And we were looking at the landscape of, you know, as publicists and marketing professionals, what are the options for Black media at the time?

So that's, again, coming back to 2010, and a lot of what we were seeing was, um, the Caribbean coverage, um, very light coverage. You know, it's kind of like people go to an event, and they cover the event. This happened, that happened. But not a lot of critical analysis of what was happening to Black Canadians.

And, uh, there was one, uh, publication that I remember that in terms of the, the quality of the writing and the, uh, the storytelling that, you know, it was admirable, and it was Sway Magazine, and they were operated by Toronto Star. So we're doing our PR firm. We're working with all the different media houses.

And then I said, you know... I was talking to my wife, and I said, "You know, we really should create a platform, not only something that can, um, be also a repository for Black-owned businesses to have a online presence," because that's something that we also observed through our marketing that we would, you know, we would drop off, you know, this is guerrilla marketing days, flyers and posters.

You're going into barbershops and restaurants and bars and even dentist office or whatever to drop these things off. And most of those spaces, we, we had a list of over 400, which covered, you know, from Niagara Falls up into Kitchener-Waterloo, Cambridge, GTA, Barrie, and Ottawa and Montreal, and I would say, at the time, 75% of those businesses, Black-owned businesses, did not even have a Facebook page.

So I think about that. This is 20- 2010, now 2011. So we had this idea to create, let's create a space where they would have a presence- Right? Digital presence at least that was more catered to, you know, Blackness, right? So that's the first thing. And then also, um, incorporate storytelling, uh, about Black Canadians.

So that's kind of the genesis of, of how ByBlacks came up. There's the two problems was visibility and storytelling. So the, the, the push now was when, um, Sway Magazine shut down in, I believe it was August 2012. So at that time I was still kinda, I was an accountant. I'm in that paralysis analysis stage of doing, you know, trying to estimate what the budget, what the this, the that.

And we just said, "You know what? Forget this. We are gonna go to market because we're gonna take up that space that Sway has left." So that was, that was really the impetus. So within , so that was August, we launched ByBlacks February 17th. We went live 2013. So that's, that's been it, and then the rest is history.

Most of the, most of the articles at the time, like the first bunch of articles were either, um, Camilla or myself writing it or, or people who we knew that were experts. So, you know, finance, legal, fitness, um, fashion, arts, people who were, you know, wanted to have a place to, to, to post stuff, you know? So we started out with that and then, you know, we've moved now into, you know, we're what?

We're 13 years old now, so we're teenagers and, uh, we have a different, we have a different focus. You know, we have more writers. We have, you know, I would say that we have, um, improved on our, on the, the, the contributors that are writing for the publication. And of course, we're telling Black Canadian stories from Black Canadian writers, so that's the, that's the key thing, right?

We don't have any Americans or, or Jamaicans or UK people writing for ByBlacks. Everybody is actually resident here.

[00:07:18] Rita Burke: You tell, uh, an interesting, I would say fascinating, inspiring stories about the impetus for By Blacks. Now, walk us through, Roger, the reception, the initial reception of this entity called ByBlacks, please. 

[00:07:41] Roger Dundas: Well, that, that fantastic. Um, so first on or first of all, the name ByBlacks, B-Y B-L-A-C-K-S, was jarring to some people.

They didn't like, they didn't like it. And, and we've had, you know, folks outside of the melanated community who have said, "Oh, why don't you have a... So what's wrong so we can have a By Whites?" I said, "By, By... Yeah, sure. Go ahead." Um, I'm not, I'm not gonna stop that, right? But we understand the, the reception at first, that was one of the things that, you know, some people took them a little while to, to understand it's B-Y, buy us, not B-U-Y, buying us, right?

So that was I thought took a little, um, selling But once people got the idea, then that was it. And then of course, there was great ... To me, there was good reception for it because we were already known in the community in terms of the, the events that I was managing or putting on myself. So there were a number of people that we were connected with already through the arts and entertainment sector.

And, um, so the, the, the conversion was a little easier for us, right? So that, that would be the thing. And then, and then once we started covering a lot of different, um, people, then it became even, you know, it became more of a, a, a known name, right? So that's that bit. And I think the- just the, the name itself was, was kind of jarring for particularly non-melanated people, but, uh, even some Black pe- even some people within my family, they were s- they were saying, "W- why would you call it that?"

Right? Um, I, but I like to tell this particular story of this gentleman. And, you know, when we were starting as well, we were seeking funding for the, for the entity from, uh, from a- one of these quasi government organizations that's set up to support, um, you know, young entrepreneurs, right? So let's call this company, it's a new company.

So I went to the organization, which I won't name, and the guy that was assigned to me was a Guyanese Indian guy. And I had submitted, remember I said I had done up all of this budget and things. I had this business plan, and I gave it to him and he read it. And he said to me, he said, "Roger, I don't think that ByBlack is gonna work because Black people don't support each other."

And I'm here to say, 13 years on, we're still here and we're thriving, right? So, you know, people outside the community will tell us that, but really we know how it is w- within our own community. We do support each other. I don't think that the, the lack of support is necessarily any different from any of the other communities.

Yes, we could do a better job of keeping the money within the community, but it's hard because sometimes some of the services are not even available within the community 

[00:10:57] Ellington Brown: Well, you know, I w- you were talking a- a- about the, the name and how some people didn't like it, and the only thing I kept coming up with is that they're just jealous.

You know? That they didn't think... You know, that they didn't come up with the, with, uh, a, a name similar and as powerful as ByBlacks, because it says everything right there. Yeah. When you say that- Right there ... just right there, i- there's no turning back. You, you see it. And so I really do like the, like the name.

I bet you guys have good merch too. Um- 

[00:11:34] Roger Dundas: We, we do. I actually have one on right now. 

[00:11:36] Ellington Brown: Oh, yeah! 

[00:11:37] Roger Dundas: I have my... So this is the icon. 

[00:11:39] Ellington Brown: Uh-huh. 

[00:11:39] Roger Dundas: This is the icon that we got. Oh. And then the logo. I have shirts with the logo, of course, and, um, everything we do, it's branded, you know, ByBlacks first. Yeah. Like ByBlacks Restaurant Week, uh, the ByBlacks People's Choice Awards, and, um, there's more coming.

[00:11:57] Ellington Brown: You have a background in in marketing, PR person Accounting. So- 

[00:12:06] Roger Dundas: I'm an accountant! ... so how- I actually am an accountant. Yeah. 

[00:12:10] Ellington Brown: I believe you! Yeah. So and how does these, specialties help you, sustain byblacks.com? 

[00:12:23] Roger Dundas: So, uh, let me start with the accounting first. So we, we, because of me, we have been able to do away with a very high accounting bill.

So really what I'm doing is I'm kind of overseeing the, the operations, um, the accounting operations, um, the invoicing, everything to do with receiving and paying money. So we're able to save money a lot from that. And then because of the sales, sales and marketing background, we're able to refine our sales model so that, um...

I mean, it, it's interesting that when I tell people I don't cold call people, I've never done that. For Buy Blacks, we don't cold call. What we have is a system of inbound marketing. So we have a website that's providing a service to the community, to the Black Canadian community, well, to the Canadian community, and people are reaching out to us for different things.

So then when they reach out to us, we can reach back out to them, right? So it's, our people are reaching out to us to ask or say, "How, how can I promote my X, Y, Z on byblacks.com?" So it's not a situation where we are... I've never, as I said, I've never, you know, created a list of people that I need to reach out to, "Hey," you know, "come and do this," blah, blah, blah.

Uh, only, only when we're doing the Restaurant Week do we actually... And there you go. They're not paying right now. So we're reaching out to them to participate. It r- They're not earn- We're not earning any money from the, from the restaurants, right? So that's more, again, that's more of a, a community initiative to help Black-owned restaurants.

[00:14:07] Rita Burke: You, you, you kind of mentioned that you're a teenager now, so that means that, mm, you're happy with where things are going. But at what point in the business or in the involvement did you realize, "Ooh, yes, this was the ri- right decision"? 

[00:14:29] Roger Dundas: I think in, um, 20- 2017. It was 2017, 2018 when we, um, when we started to turn a profit.

So, you know, that would have been three, three, four, four, five years in. And we started to turn a profit, and then we started to get grants from different bodies, and we started to get bigger clients, and we, uh, redesigned the website and, and all that. So all, all those things. And, and also, I, I'm very honest to, to tell people that, you know, we didn't even know what the hell we were doing from a, from a, from a business perspective, you know, i- in the, in the first three years.

Uh, and I would say maybe I know 80% of what I'm doing right now, you know. It's probably at 80%, but I wouldn't say I know 100%. But that's much more than a lot of the people that I interact with, my peers in the business. They, they're behind, uh, my learning curve 'cause I, I'm a, I wanna learn, right? So, so that's the thing.

The, the, the business of it, you know, the, the... Putting the content out is easy, easier. You know, we have a first-class editor in chief, uh, Camille Dundas, who's a, you know, Carleton-trained journalist, worked at four major media houses in Canada. So she has a very keen eye about what stories she thinks, um, will, will resonate with our readers.

But the business side is, okay, so you have the eyeballs. Now how do you translate that into revenue? So that's been a dance, right? So when you say you're a teenager, the, the, the formative years from age six to 13, those were really the years to say, okay, test different things and see which one actually makes sense in terms of generating revenue.

So that, that's what, as a te- as a teenager, we're, we're very in tune with right now what can generate revenue and what generates eyeballs and what types of articles resonates with the Canadian public 

[00:16:44] Ellington Brown: It sounds like you are in touch with the demographics. Uh, it sounds like you already know what people like.

Uh, I'm sure that the, uh- 

[00:16:54] Roger Dundas: 80%. 

[00:16:56] Ellington Brown: 80... Oh, that's right, I forgot you said 80%. You know, come to think of it, we had, uh, a l- uh, uh, a, a woman on, on, on our show, and she talked about, uh, not allowing yourself to become boxed in. So she believes that, you know, if there's something you wanna do, just go ahead and do it, even if it means if you do it dirty.

Just, you know, get out there- Right ... and do it. 'Cause if you don't, you have to sit there and, you know, day after day going, "What if, coulda, shoulda done," uh, and you know, that's not gonna get you anywhere. Right. So what were some of the early challenges, uh, in gaining trust from the readers and the contributors, and how did you get them totally on your side?

Or at least 80%. 

[00:17:53] Roger Dundas: 80%. Yeah. Well, I mean, the, the thing is that bec- all right, so a little bit of my history. I only came to Canada in 2000. Uh, as I said, I'm an accountant, so I worked corporate, three Fortune 500 companies for the first 10 years, and then I went into entrepreneurship from 2010. So I haven't looked back since then.

But from 2006, I had this grand idea to produce, um, arts events, so I was an arts promoter, um, producing theater, dance, comedy shows, poetry shows, and visual art shows. And then through... So I did that from '26 to 2011, and then I cut it off 'cause I lost a substantial amount of money. So I said, "This is not for me," right?

That w- 'Cause we weren't, we were not, uh, I was not operating with, um, grant money. I was just doing it, you know, self-funded with a, a few dollars in sponsorship. So I didn't have... Like most smarter people, they, they actually apply for grants and get support from the government, you know, Canada Arts Council, Toronto Arts Council, Ontario Arts, whatever.

I, I didn't, I didn't know that system at that time, or I couldn't access the system because I wasn't a nonprofit. So, so that, that is, um- So coming into starting Byblacks and having s- already started the marketing firm, because we knew how to market at least the, the arts production, so I got a lot of clients marketing the arts productions.

So there were a number of people that we got connected to because of that. So there was trust in, you know... I'm a no-nonsense guy. I, I say what I'm gonna do and I do it. If I can't do it, then I need to apologize and rectify the situation. Some people ghost you. I'm not a ghoster. I don't ghost people, right?

We're gonna talk through the thing and we're gonna resolve it. So my reputation, that I feel is my reputation, that I get things done. So if I'm doing Byblacks, they feel like, okay, if he's doing something, he's attached to a project, it's gonna get done. It's gonna be done seriously. He's not gonna half-ass it.

Y- you know? So I think that, that is really what helped, and of course Camille's reputation as a journalist as well. So as I said, she's worked with, in four major, you know, n- networks in Canada. So, you know, she's well-respected as well throughout the, the journalism community. So both of us came with two different strengths.

I came with the marketing, um, and I was a auditor as well, so I'm very structured in terms of, you know, how a process should work and what are the, the, the, the, the nuances to, to look out for, things where you could get tripped up in and get exposure and all that. So I, I'm following a, a playbook, if you will.

Um, and then of course over the time I've gotten a little bit more astute in identifying who is a prospect from who is a suspect, right? So you don't wanna waste your time. You, you... I am very, very clear in business of who is a prospect and who is a suspect. 'Cause I, I ask them, this is the, always the same question, "What is your budget and what is your timeline?"

That's it. We're doing business. I'm not here to- 

[00:21:30] Rita Burke: Business is business is business, and I hear you Yeah, I- It's not a ho- it's not a hobby, it's not a social club. It's a business. And yet it- 

[00:21:36] Roger Dundas: I don't walk into... Exactly. You don't walk into Tim Horton's and say, "Hey, uh, you know, I'm feeling sad today, and-" "... I really could, could do with a, uh, a-" 

[00:21:45] Rita Burke: Give me some su- give me some sugar to make me feel high.

Yeah. 

[00:21:47] Roger Dundas: Yeah, no. No, no, no. Yeah. We don't operate like that. We're doing business, and if we're doing business, this is how much you buy. If you don't, and if you don't come up with a budget, then I know you're our suspect. 

[00:21:57] Rita Burke: It's interesting that you talked earlier about the person you approached perhaps for funding, and the person said that we don't support each other.

[00:22:07] Roger Dundas: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:08] Rita Burke: Uh, we had a bookstore. My husband and I had a bookstore in Toronto. We opened in '94, and when we approached the bank, it was Bank of Nova Scotia, to open our business account, the manager told us, "Black people don't read, so why are you opening a bookstore?" Well, we knew differently. We were both educators at the time.

We knew differently. We had our history. Whether they read or not, we were gonna help them to read. But that is the position that these people take. They think they know so much about our community, and we are the ones that have to make that decision. We know what we want, we know where we're going, and we are tunnel vision.

We did not- Mm-hmm ... did not listen to him. I still remember his name. Of course, he's retired now, but he told us that Black people don't read. The audacity of him making that statement. Nevertheless, nevertheless, in your bio you say you show up, Byblacks show up where the community needs support. I'd like you to expand and explain that statement.

[00:23:15] Roger Dundas: So, you know, there's, there's, there's two things with support. Support is, um, providing exposure. S- kind of similar to what you're doing in terms of seeing different businesses or different initiatives and then giving them a platform for them to, to sh- to expose themselves and let people know what they're doing, right?

Uh, I do feel as media though, that we're custodians of democracy and fairness. So there are times too where we also need to expose wrongdoings within the community. So that's, it's, it's two things, right? So in exposing the po- you know, the positive things that people are doing, but also trying to prevent bad things from happening within the community as well.

I think that's, that's really what we're doing

[00:24:09] Ellington Brown: Here on SpeakUP! International, we talk on many topics, different people, different organizations. Mm-hmm. Sometimes our conversations with some people are very serious, and they're not happy kind of

conversations. And then we have, you know, people that you almost have to tie down because they're so positive and they're passionate and, you know, they're about ready to climb into the computer to sit next to you, uh- ... in order to complete the conversation. And I'm going, "No, stay over there." So you... Wait, so Cam- Camille?

[00:24:49] Roger Dundas: Camille, 

[00:24:49] Ellington Brown: yes. That's, that's your wife. She's the editor-in-chief, right? The chief. 

[00:24:53] Roger Dundas: She's the boss. 

[00:24:54] Ellington Brown: She's the, she's the boss. Okay, so she's the, the president in charge of everything. 

[00:24:59] Roger Dundas: She is the boss. 

[00:25:00] Ellington Brown: Well, hey, that's all right. There's nothing wrong 

[00:25:02] Roger Dundas: with that. I'm just, I'm just the best supporting actor.

[00:25:05] Ellington Brown: And when you say that, you better mean it when, when you're standing next to her. 

[00:25:10] Roger Dundas: You, you know, it's funny that, um, when, um, you know, she's in charge of all editorial. Everything- Yeah ... every line that's written on there is, is passed through her team, right? Her team and her assistant editors. And I even came into situations where, as I said, I'm an arts person, so I'm pitching

I'll myself pitch an art story, and people in the industry know this now. They know that this is true. I've pitched the story and the story was not picked up by the editor, editorial team. Uh, and it's because, you know, we've changed our guidelines, um, over the last three years to, to, to follow a more long format, um, editorial, um, approach, meaning that we no longer do, like, reviews of plays or, you know, reviews of artists or, you know, we went to

You know, somebody's having an event and we went to an event. They're like, "Oh, this person was here. This person got an award." No. We're, we're dealing ... Right now we're writing about issues that are impacting the community and how those issues manifest themselves through our experiences. And what we, what we find is that, you know, you could

Like, we've, we've interviewed Kevin Hart. Oh. We've interviewed Tyler Perry. We've interviewed Meagan Good. Uh, you know, we've done all of that. We've interviewed Sean Paul, and those interviews don't have as much readership as the article that Camille wrote on when Black boys go missing. So i- i- i- it tells you the, the, the thing that we are really most interested in.

We are interested in what's really happening in our own communities. The superstar, eh, you know what? Vibe Magazine and all those, you know, everybody's covering them and everything. I mean, who wants to know, you know, how much millions they're, they're spending? We don't, we're not interested in that. We're interested in things that are really impacting our community.

So, so that, that's what I find.

[00:27:10] Rita Burke: I, um, I'm gonna throw a term out at you, and I want you to respond however you feel you can 

[00:27:20] Roger Dundas: You're gonna, you're gonna throw a what, sorry? 

[00:27:23] Rita Burke: A term. A word. 

[00:27:24] Roger Dundas: A term, yes. A couple of words. 

[00:27:25] Rita Burke: Terms. Yes. 

[00:27:26] Roger Dundas: Sure. 

[00:27:26] Rita Burke: Black-owned food businesses. 

[00:27:30] Roger Dundas: Black-owned- 

[00:27:30] Rita Burke: I want you to respond however... Black-owned food businesses. 

[00:27:34] Roger Dundas: They could do better with better marketing

[00:27:38] Ellington Brown: Why do you say that? 

[00:27:40] Roger Dundas: So, So you know that we, we've been running this ByBlacks Restaurant Week now for six years from 2021. Uh, w- we started out, um... We start- the ideation for this Restaurant Week thing started from 2018. At the time I was, I was talking to a chef, um, who's a friend of my wife, and, uh, they believed that, you know, they wanted to do it in a certain way, and we were trying to, you know, merge forces, so to speak, to put on this, this thing, and it, it fell through.

It didn't happen in 2018. And then in 2021, in the middle of the pandemic, like literally in like January of that year, I started thinking about this Restaurant Week thing again, and I said, "You know, we should do it as a way to help to promote them," right? Because the, the one thing I, I've observed, um, is that the restaurants...

So let me back up and say, I've been... Now, now that I've been doing this Restaurant Week, and even from before, I, I would say I think the number is in excess of 350 Black-owned restaurants that I've been to from coast to coast, from, from British Columbia all the way over to Nova Scotia. I haven't been in the...

I haven't been to Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland, New Brunswick yet, right? But, but I've been to Saskatchewan, Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, Ontario, of course, Quebec, right? And this is my personal opinion, 90% of the restaurants, the food tastes good. 90. 90, right? There's the 10% where it was terrible, and I've seen most of those restaurants close already, the 10%, right?

When it comes on to how the restaurant looks, I would say 60% of them are decent, meaning that they look good, they're clean, they're appealing, et cetera. And then when it comes down to the customer service, I would say 50% of them probably give good customer service. So if you look at that, that's my, that's my personal opinion based on my experience going to all these restaurants, right?

So that's when I say, you know, the marketing is the thing, right? So a, a, a, a lot of restaurants or Black food businesses, whether they are patty shops or juice bars or bakeries or fine dining or takeout or ghost kitchens or food trucks, whatever, right? What I find with them is that, as I said, 90% of the food tastes good, so they're like, it's like Field of Dreams.

You remember that movie with Kevin Costner? Build it and they will come. That's, that's their belief, right? So they, they say, "Oh, the food tastes good, so people will just come and show up." But in this environment of social media, and hyper-marketing is what I'm gonna call it, you have to be hyper-marketing.

And they are not hyper-marketing. They've put out a one post or... I, I'm not even sure. I've seen some posts at restaurants, too. I'm like, "Why are you doing that? Show me the food." People wanna see the food. I don't wanna see you doing silly games in the, in the restaurant and guess this, guess that. No, that's all, that's cute and all, but no, you know, I'm interested in the food, right?

And that's how I get motivated to wanna visit the restaurant. Either, um, somebody tells me about the restaurant and they say the food is good, or I see the food itself and I see how they present it and I see the effort that they make in how they do it, and I say, "Okay, I'm gonna go to that particular restaurant."

So marketing. Marketing is their number one crux. Marketing involves the customer service and the look and feel of the space and the everything, right? It's a, it's a, it's that experience of buying the food is, is not good, um, for a lot, for 40%, 40, 50% of them. 

[00:31:44] Ellington Brown: Okay. So w- when you go into a restaurant... Oh, wait.

Start over. When you maybe see a pamphlet, a magazine, and they're talking about this restaurant that supposedly Fabulous. And, uh, you, the, the spread in the magazine is beautiful, absolutely beautiful, and then you go to the restaurant and it just doesn't match. You s- what you see in the magazine versus- Hmm

what you see in the actual- I've actually- ... restaurant. Have you ever run into that situation- 

[00:32:24] Roger Dundas: No ... 

[00:32:24] Ellington Brown: wow, 

[00:32:25] Roger Dundas: this 

[00:32:25] Ellington Brown: is- 

[00:32:27] Roger Dundas: No, so, so first of all, uh, I'm not reading pamphlets or magazines. I'm seeing it online, so that's, that's, that's the first thing. So I'm seeing it digitally- 

[00:32:35] Ellington Brown: Okay ... 

[00:32:35] Roger Dundas: through a video or a picture, right?

And I would say most times the, the images match up to the, to the location, right? So, you know, they're... it's hard to, to mask, you know, the signage and, and all of that. The restaurant is what it is. Um, what I do know that for me, one of the things, the extra steps I take is to go into the washroom. So the washroom is the telltale, um, of where the...

how clean that restaurant is being maintained in the first place. So there was a restaurant I went to recently, and I, I really love to talk about her, and I, I hope she sees this after. I went to this restaurant called Ella's Kitchen in Hamilton. And let me tell you, sir, I could, I could eat food off of the floor in the bathroom.

It was s- it was spanking clean. I mean, the entire rest- And you could see the counter was clean. The back of the counter was clean. I could see into the kitchen. The kitchen was clean. The service was delivered pleasantly. Like, I gave them a, a 10 out of 10, five out of five, 10 out of 10. The food was tasted fresh.

Everything we bought from the restaurant tasted good, right? So 10 out of 10 for the, the cleanliness, 10 out of 10 for the food, 10 out of 10 for the service delivery, right? It was just, it was, it was just a great ex- So I'm hoping that, you know, more restaurants can follow that Ella's Kitchen model. Uh, I think her name is Sophia Anglin is the, is the owner.

And then she also does a... she created, uh, an ice cream brand as well- Mm ... which, which, which is comparable to the world-class Devon House ice cream from Jamaica. So it's, it's very good, right? I, I, I, I really have to... And, and she, I told her, I don't think she was a part of the restaurant we kick off event. And, um, I, I don't...

When she looked at me, she's like, "Wow." She didn't even expect me to say that, but it, yeah, the, the... everything was just so clean. 

[00:34:42] Rita Burke: Where is she located? 

[00:34:44] Roger Dundas: She's on North Ottawa Street, I think, in Hamilton. 

[00:34:48] Rita Burke: Okay. So it's not, not in Toronto. 

[00:34:51] Roger Dundas: No, not in Toronto. It's in Hamilton. 

[00:34:53] Rita Burke: You talked about your barometer for measuring- effectiveness or how good a space is.

You talked about the taste of the food, you talked about the appearance, and you talked about customer service. 

[00:35:10] Roger Dundas: Yes. 

[00:35:12] Rita Burke: W- what is your measurement of customer service? Talk to me about that because it's something that I, is dear to my heart as well, not just in restaurants, but generally in our community. Talk to me about that please.

[00:35:28] Roger Dundas: Yeah. So, so it starts with your, how you're greeted and, and the, the desire of that person who is at that cashier or waitress or whoever to, to inform you of the options and to guide you to what you want, right? In the most pleasant and friendly manner, right? So this is, this is where a lot of people lose it because, you know, I was recently in Jamaica, and I'd have to say that the customer service down there is nil.

It's, it's nil. Uh, but you know, you know where we got some excellent service? Again, I just love to talk about places where... I went to a place called Konoko Falls, and right from the security guard down to the cashier to the person who took us on the, on the, um, who guided us on the walk up the falls, everybody was, had excellent, um, customer service, and they were friendly and wanted to help you, and they were eager to help you, and they weren't pressuring you and asking you for any money or anything.

There was not one sour face, which was different from another space that we went to, right? So, eh, that... So that, that's the thing. If you, you, you need to... We're spending your money with you. We're enabling you to live, right? Show us some appreciation. That's the thing. Show the appreciation, and I think that, that's what's lost.

Eh, you know, I, I get it. You know, people may not be happy at their job, and they're showing that frustration. They may not be happy at home, but that's not the place. You need to show up and show out. Show up and show out, right? Don't, don't get into this trap of, of not giving good service. 

[00:37:32] Ellington Brown: You, you talk about, finding yourself in a trap.

And I, and, and, and I can see how that can be very easy because, you know, at the, the, uh, daily operations are basically the same. So if you don't watch it, you, you could easily slip into autopilot and, and then, you know, maybe things don't run as well as expected because you're not totally focused. You're just allowing yourself to just go with the flow.

Yeah. So how do you navigate leadership and, uh, decision-making, uh, in business and in a personal partnership? Okay, I'm gonna answer the personal part, the personal partners to that first, and we already know who that is, and that's, and that's the, that's the wife. So now we can go and talk about the, about the, about the business.

I don't even know your wife, and I'm, and I'm putting her in my jokes. To- totally harmless. Don't mean any harm. 

[00:38:42] Roger Dundas: Well, well, I'm, uh, I, I would say that, um, for, for our organization, for byblacks.com, uh, for CultureTix as well, um, and even for my Airbnb that we operate, um, the, the, the thing I tell my team is that we want to be excellent in everything that we do.

Not perfect. There's no such thing as perfection, so get that out of your head. We can't be perfect, but we can be excellent, meaning that even when you make a mistake, your response to the mistake can be done excellently, right? And, and I always... You know, I'm a firm believer in if I did something wrong, the step to do is to apologize and rectify, right?

There's no, I'm not gonna try to explain a mistake. I'm just gonna apologize, and I'm going to rectify the mistake. So you know, that this is a thing, too, at, um, when you're approaching clients, uh, coming back to the example of the restaurant, show some appreciation. So I show appreciation to my clients. I, I try to gift them things every year, every year.

And I know for a fact that my, my peers outside, um, you know, in the, in the ethnic media space, I'm not sure that most of them are doing that. 

[00:40:14] Ellington Brown: Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:16] Roger Dundas: They just, they, they, yeah, they accept the revenue, but then they don't cut back and say, "Hey, um, what can I do to give to the client?" Right? That's, that's, that's me.

Like for example, if I, if I'm doing the official kickoff event for Restaurant Week, all of my clients are invited for free. There's a charge to attend, but not for them. Right? So they can come and eat and drink on my, on my steam. Little things like that make a difference. So, so the leadership thing is, um, give, and I give to my team too.

So, you know, I reward good work. Uh, you know, I, I'm not reward... You showing up to work is not the reward. The reward is did you do the thing to the best of your ability? Did you follow the thing? Did you try to do it excellently? Do you follow the advice and the guidance, uh, that we're doing? And also, I'm looking to them for, for advice as well.

A lot of leaders don't do that, right? Everything I say to them, I said, "What do you think we should do?" So that's something that you need to look at your team and say, you know, what, what, what do you think is the way to solve this problem versus just always having... Because you need to grow people into critical thinking, right?

And then accepting the idea if it's a good idea, and giving them credit for the idea if it's a good idea. So- 

[00:41:46] Rita Burke: We're... On SpeakUP! International, we seek to inform, inspire, and educate. 

[00:41:52] Roger Dundas: Yes. 

[00:41:52] Rita Burke: And I believe that today that's what we're doing by hearing the story, the story about ByBlacks. We have with us Roger Dundas, who's the co-founder of that organization.

Now, Roger, how has involvement with ByBlacks changed you? How have you changed as a result of having started this particular business, organization? I'm not sure. Tell us about that, please. 

[00:42:27] Roger Dundas: You know, I, I'm gonna say that, um- My, my core person has never changed in terms of my militancy of being pro-Black. And even, even growing up in Jamaica, and some people will say, you know, Jamaica is not a racist country, and I would disagree always, right?

That, you know, we grew up in, in a colonial environment, and we grew up in an environment where it still exists today where, um, Black people are treated less than in favor of, you know, I'd like to use the term non-melanated people, you know. You know, you know the different dynamics of what's happening down there in terms of, you know, even Chinese investment, South Asian investment, European investment, buying up different things, and the, the government allowing these things to happen, um, or facilitating it.

I, I, I don't think, uh ... And that's the reason why I feel so passionate about ByBlacks is because, you know, I'm trying to, uh, encourage a certain behavior, and the behavior is to support our own, right? There's a lady by the name of Maggie Anderson. I don't know if you're familiar with her. Uh, she's from the States, and she did this thing where she went for a year, um, only supporting Black-owned businesses, which means that everything

She, I think she said she even renewed her mortgage, so she had to go to a Black bank and Black mortgage broker, Black real- ... everything. And she bought her grocery from Black and every service provider, et cetera, for a year. And one of the things she ... So she's a speaker now as well. You can look her up. And one of the things that she said which struck me was

And I'm not advocating for it, but I'm just saying that statistically, segregation, when there was segregation in the US, Blacks were actually economically better off So let me say that again. W- during segregation, Blacks were better off because we had to have our own grocery stores, our own distribution systems, our own banks, our...

You get where I'm going with this? So, so we were circulating our money within our community, and we were stronger for it. And I think she did a comparison in the number of, uh, grocery stores that existed that were Black-owned versus today, and the, the percentage per capita was, is very low compared to then.

So, so there's something to be said, right? And there's something to be said about how can we encourage more people to s- before you go and spend your disposable income. I mean, you know, there are certain things you can't avoid. Like, there's no Black bank in Canada. There's no Black-owned bank. There's no Black-owned car company.

There's no Black-owned major insurance company, et cetera, et cetera. So there are certain things that, okay, the money for that is gonna go to where it's gonna go. But then there are certain things where you can make a different choice. Like, you know, there's the dentist, there's your doctor. That's the one I can...

I haven't found a doctor yet, but every other service I... My contractor, my dentist, my, um, my realtor, my mortgage broker. So for like, for example, when byblacks.com is doing an event now, right? If we're doing an event, it has to be in a Black-owned venue. And why would I go and take my money and, and dude, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not comfortable with that. I wanna support my brothers and sisters, and there are high quality vendors out there, so I'm not worried about that Right?

So I think that's the thing that we're trying to encourage. We're trying to, in telling stories as well, that's one thing, but also to encourage people to, to purchase more goods and services from Black-owned businesses. That's, that's, that's kind of my mission right now. 

[00:46:34] Rita Burke: I've been in this country since 1973, and that is a narrative that I've heard tossed around consistently in our community, the importance of supporting each other's businesses, and I think we're getting there.

But there's a word that you used, intentional, and we have to be intentional about it. There's no question about that. But I want you to tell us, perhaps this may be my last question, about the hardest decision that Roger Dundas has ever made. What's the hardest decision that you've ever made? 

[00:47:10] Roger Dundas: Wow. Wow. You know, I don't know what was the hardest decision, but I know that a tough decision was shutting down the marketing agency that we had started.

So we in... So w- w- we started a company in 2010, and then, uh, you know, as a, call it solopreneur, it's difficult when you, it's you alone running a business. So I, I had a conversation with six people who were also solopreneurs and said, "Why don't we join forces to create this agency that would be bigger, and then we could pull in bigger clients?"

And we, we actually were successful in doing it, starting it in 2018. And, um, we did benefit a lot through, you know, that, that unity, um, through, and then also through the George Floyd. So we were doing well, 2018, 2019, 2020. COVID came, and then George Floyd came, and then we got even more work. So we were doing good.

But I think, um, you know, as people are, you know, people have different, um, goals, right? And, you know, people were not committed the same way or didn't put in the same effort. And I, I was really more just focused on business development and, and the marketing side. So, you know, anything to do with branding and, and, um, website development, et cetera, that was my forte, and then, like, publicity and that was with other partners.

And I think in the end, we had such great opportunity, and we could have maintained a, a solid client base. We could have still been operating today, but I don't think that the partners had the same, um, drive. So I'm, I'm, I'm in the entrepreneurship- mindset and they were more in an employee mindset, even though they were also owners.

So it, it, it, it, yeah. So that, that would be my thing. Um, so it was, it was disappointing to see it close, but in the end, uh, I, I knew that I didn't wanna be a solopreneur doing that type of work 

[00:49:30] Ellington Brown: Mr. Dundas, I wanna thank you for visiting, SpeakUP! International, this morning. I don't know how many cups of coffee you've had, but I've certainly- 

[00:49:41] Roger Dundas: Just one

[00:49:41] Ellington Brown: That's it? Oh my God. That's right. I wouldn't even... I, I need times three in order to get the engine running! 

[00:49:49] Roger Dundas: You know what you have to do then? You have to go to bed early and get some good sleep. 

[00:49:53] Ellington Brown: Uh, yeah. 

[00:49:53] Roger Dundas: That's the, that's the secret to it. 

[00:49:55] Ellington Brown: Is that the secret? 

[00:49:57] Roger Dundas: That's the secret. You gotta get the sleep- I'm gonna-

so that you're rested so you don't need the coffee to lift you up. 

[00:50:02] Ellington Brown: I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold you to that. 

[00:50:05] Roger Dundas: Yes, sir. 

[00:50:05] Ellington Brown: Out of everything that we talked about today, one thing to me is, is clear, and that is when you choose, uh, community, community- Yeah ... uh, first, uh, y- you don't just build a platform.

You, you actually, you're building a legacy, and this legacy can last for, you know, 30, 40 years depending on how well, uh, the individuals that are working are supporting you now. In the future, somebody's gonna have to take it over because, well, you know. You know how that is. 

[00:50:48] Roger Dundas: We're gonna die. 

[00:50:49] Ellington Brown: There you go!

We're gonna die. I didn't wanna say that. 

[00:50:51] Roger Dundas: I speak very frankly. . I'm not really skirting around reality and truth and everything. 

Um, we, we are looking right now. We have done an assessment of a succession plan.

The succession plan is actually in place from a, from a business perspective, not necessarily from a people perspective, so the business can survive post, post-death. Um, but it does, there, I think we should start now, I would say within the next, within five to 10 years would be the time to really start to s- to try to, to find, um, uh, either somebody who would acquire the business or find a successor.

And my kids are not. My one kid wants to be an architect and one wants to be a vet, so they're not interested in running a media business. As much as they like to come to the events, especially the ByBlacks Restaurant Week kickoff event, they love that event, um, but it's, um, they're not interested in being journalists or those type of business.

They're interested in business, yes, but not in the media business. So yes, we need to figure out, you know, what's five to 10 years from now, wha- who is going to be the, the successor or if it's just gonna be a situation where we sell the business totally. 

[00:52:20] Ellington Brown: Uh, Rita, do you have something that you wanna add to this?

[00:52:23] Rita Burke: Yes. I, I just wanna thank Roger for joining us on Speakers of, SpeakUP International, and for explaining what happens at ByBlacks and the impetus for getting it started. I also want to thank him for representing our community in a positive way. I have been reading your articles recently. Thank you.

[00:52:47] Roger Dundas: Thank you. 

[00:52:48] Rita Burke: And I'm very, I'm very impressed. 

[00:52:50] Roger Dundas: Thank you! 

[00:52:51] Rita Burke: So keep on doing what you're doing. 

[00:52:51] Roger Dundas: I'll tell Camille. 

[00:52:55] Rita Burke: Keep on doing what you're doing. Our community n- our community needs ByBlacks. I will say that as a community member. So thank you, thank you, 

[00:53:04] Roger Dundas: Thank you. Thank you. And the community needs SpeakUP! International.

[00:53:08] Rita Burke: We're having fun. We're having a lot of fun! 

[00:53:09] Roger Dundas: Yes. So this is it. The, the, the, the, the, the questions, the depth of the questions and the everything that you guys are doing, it gets people to, to tell meaningful stories, I, I think, right? So that, that, that is it. We all ... And I encourage, and this is the thing I encourage people to, to start media businesses.

We need ... There's, there's different niches and, and different stories that need to be told. And as I said, you know, for us, we feel like we're telling authentic stories because it's being written by Black Canadians. So there's other stories out there that also need to be told that we're probably just based on resources not getting to.

So, you know, we, we need the media houses out there that are telling Black Canadian stories. 

And it's critical that those stories are archived. That they're told- 100% ... in our voices, they're told in our voices, and they are archived so when younger Black Canadians are researching for projects at university or colleges they hear stories being told by the people themselves. That that is my mandate. That's what I believe SpeakUP International is seeking to do. 

I agree with that 100%. We definitely need to have the archives. I, I was so saddened that, um, ShareNews shut down and didn't archive all their, the 40 odd years of stories.

Um, I was really hoping that, you know, it could have been maintained and the stories could have been, you know, somewhere. I, I really hope that that's a project that somebody will, will take up 

[00:54:46] Ellington Brown: Uh, same here because we need all, we need all the stories, just like where you, I mean, where you are. You work with a lot of fantastic individuals, and we would love to be introduced to y- these individuals- Absolutely

that you know, and, uh, we, we would love to and get their stories as, as well. I think it's really, really important that we get as many, many as possible so that when we're gone, there's a s- there's a, a rich source of information that people can use to inspire themselves and also educate themselves, so. 

[00:55:29] Roger Dundas: It, it, it would be remiss of me if I, I didn't mention this, that, um, during Restaurant Week, we actually did an inaugural event, um, called a Black Leaders Dinner.

So we did that on the Tuesdays. Restaurant Week was from Monday to Sunday, and it was, it was a part of Restaurant Week. So what, what it was intended to do was to get Black Canadian leaders, um, in one room to, to have a... to be able to, I could say network and have meaningful- Yeah ... conversation. Not in a, you know, not, it wasn't a gala.

It was just 30 people. 30 people, right? And I would say that the... So let me explain. So we did it at the BDC, Business Development Bank of Canada. I believe that, um, that's what the name is. They're a Crown Corp, so as I said, I wouldn't do it in a... Crown Corp means government, so that's all for everybody, right?

And we had representatives from the arts industry, so leaders, right? So, you know, we're talking CEOs, executive directors, founders, et cetera. Different industries: arts, non-profit, tech, food, health services, finance, legal, um, banking, and, um, CPG, consumer packaged goods, right? And what happened that night was just magic It was magic.

It, it, it, to, to... Because we, we are in a, in a, I'm gonna say a privileged position of having people pitch to us all the time, and knowing different people, and knowing everybody from the different sectors, right? So across the country. We're, we're not an Ontario thing. We tell stories from all of Canada, right?

And to get them in the room, and then to see

the positive interactions and the positivity coming from it, and seeing people making connections to further recirculate that money, right? And it was done, all the, the stuff that was being consumed, we had a Black caterer who delivered a five-course meal. Excellent. Food was, like, completely off the chain.

Um, Selwyn Richards. And then all the beverages that were consumed there were from Black Canadian providers. Everything. So it was a Black immersive experience. And then we also had a violinist serenading us during the dinner, Black Canadian. So that's the type of... When you are, when you set out to be intentional, you can do it.

You can do it right down to the, the... So one... And, and the thing is, 100% of the money that we got from the people who paid to attend went right to... We didn't take a cent. 

[00:58:32] Rita Burke: Mm. 

[00:58:32] Roger Dundas: We just facilitated a com- this thing. So I, I, and yeah, I know that, you know, giving to me is the way to be So that, that's the thing for me.

You, if you're not giving, you're not gonna be getting. Well- You, you think you're getting, you're not really getting. 

[00:58:51] Ellington Brown: Well, you know, that's, that reminds me of something my, my mom used to always say, uh, when we were growing up and my brothers would say, "Can I have some candy? Some of your candy." I say, "No." So my mother would come out and she'd have her hand like this, like a fist, and she says, "This is your, this is your fist," like this.

She says, "How can you expect to get anything if your hand is closed like that?" And so it was like, "Oh, okay. So all right, I'm gonna give him candy," and of course I'm gonna expect to get the same. But I, I think in your case you're, you give, but there are no expectations. No expectation. You're not expecting- 

[00:59:29] Roger Dundas: No, 

[00:59:29] Ellington Brown: no, no, no.

Not- ... something from these people. It's just- 

[00:59:31] Roger Dundas: Not at all. 

[00:59:32] Ellington Brown: You 

[00:59:32] Roger Dundas: just don't- I'm expecting them to give to somebody else. 

[00:59:36] Ellington Brown: To somebody 

[00:59:36] Roger Dundas: else. Give other people a opportunity. We even, um, we paid for a youth leader to come to the event. 

[00:59:43] Ellington Brown: Yeah. 

[00:59:44] Roger Dundas: She's head of the... She was one of the Black student, um, uh, union- 

[00:59:50] Ellington Brown: Mm ... 

[00:59:51] Roger Dundas: um, leaders for universities across the country.

You know what I mean? And you know, what she got out of it was just, again, an engaging with different people from different backgrounds, and she really soaked it up like she was soaking up the sun as a Tanner. You know? It was, it was g- it was very ni- I, I, I must say, of all the things probably I've done, I've, that's probably one of the best things I've done.

[01:00:17] Ellington Brown: Uh, do you, do you find that, uh- Black people have different expectations when they go to a Black restaurant versus a white restaurant. 

[01:00:32] Roger Dundas: No, I don't think so. 

[01:00:34] Ellington Brown: You don't think so? 

[01:00:34] Roger Dundas: I don't think... I think expectation is always the same. It's always the same. We, we, we want good food and we want good service.

Doesn't matter. 

[01:00:43] Ellington Brown: And not, 

[01:00:43] Roger Dundas: not- But the question, the 

[01:00:44] Rita Burke: question is 

[01:00:44] Ellington Brown: about restaurants ... 

[01:00:45] Rita Burke: and not necessarily 

[01:00:45] Ellington Brown: in that order. 

[01:00:48] Rita Burke: Right. The question's about restaurants, but I expect customer service anywhere I go. Anywhere. Go to a hospital, I expect to be treated with respect and dignity. I go to a government office, I expect that.

And if I don't get it, I will tell them- Totally ... in an email afterwards, in an email afterwards. Totally. So I expect it doesn't matter where I go. 

[01:01:06] Roger Dundas: Doesn't matter where or what's, what you're doing. Yeah. I expect to get good service. Yeah. 

[01:01:10] Rita Burke: Or you'll get an email from me saying- Right ... "I was not impressed with how I was treated."

[01:01:15] Roger Dundas: And that, and that's why I say for me, if, um, I try to, like, I try to respond to people's emails in a timely manner. And, uh, if I... You guys know that, you know that about me, and if I can't do it then and the person follows up, I, I apologize. You know? The, the thing is that there's so much power in apology, because people are like, "Uh, Canadians don't like to apologize."

I don't know if that's a, it's a, it's a cultural thing. They don't like to say, "I'm sorry," or, "I made a mistake." Oh, I made a mistake. Come on, I'm a human. But I hear something, I'm gonna solve 

[01:01:49] Rita Burke: it. Human beings, human beings, human beings don't like to admit they're making mistakes. Human beings generally. 

[01:01:55] Roger Dundas: I don't know about Canadians.

Some human beings. Some. 

[01:01:57] Rita Burke: Many, many. 

[01:01:58] Roger Dundas: Many. 

[01:01:59] Rita Burke: They, they will, they will circle, they'll circle the issue and, uh, explain this and explain that, and rationalize this and rationalize this, and... But human beings. And, and, and just a simple pausing and thinking about what transpired and saying, "You know what? I boo- I'm sorry."

Right. But it's something we need to teach ourselves, I believe. 

[01:02:23] Roger Dundas: Yes. 

[01:02:23] Ellington Brown: That's very true. Well, well, you know, I find, I find, uh, uh, Rita, I don't know if you remember Vicki Moskowitz. She was the one that taught me how to throw myself under the bus. Just throw your just throw yourself. If you make a mistake, just, you know, just say it, she said, because all...

If you, if you try to gas somebody, it... what was, like, this size now has turned into this mountain, and if you had to just apologized and got it out of the way, it would've been, it'd been gone now, and, you know, you just move on with life. Uh- 

[01:02:59] Rita Burke: But Mr. Dundas, we've kept you longer than we should have, and so we thank you sincerely for being a part of SpeakUP International.

And I hope that at some point when you feel you've got new information to share with us about ByBlack, so what you're doing business-wise, feel free to come join us 

[01:03:17] Roger Dundas: I will. And thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed the time here today. 

[01:03:22] Ellington Brown: Me too!

 Thank you for tuning in to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact our guest, Mr. Roger Dundas, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Mr. Roger Dundas at linkedin.com or byblacks.com. Mr. Dundas has other social media accounts you can use to connect to him that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms.

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