[00:00:10] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

[00:00:23] Rita Burke: This morning we have the good pleasure of having a conversation with Mr. Eugene Manley. Mr. Manley is a cancer scientist and health equity leader. He's a founder of a nonprofit that focuses on cancer health equity, and Mr. Manley says that he grew up watching people in his community struggle to navigate complex systems that were not built with us in mind.

And his goal is to change the experience at the bedside in the clinic and on the screen. Now I can tell you so much more about our guest today, Mr. Eugene Manley. But as we say on SpeakUP! International, we prefer if our guests tell their own stories. And so I welcome you to SpeakUP! International, Mr. Eugene Manley! 

[00:01:26] Eugene Manley: Good morning, Rita and Elton. Um, it's a pleasure to be on the show and I'm happy to be able to talk about the work that I'm doing at She and the work that, uh, I've been a advocating for to help underserved communities navigate care.

[00:01:41] Ellington Brown: I wanna thank everybody, especially Eugene, for what you are doing in our community, giving back to the communities, giving the tools that you've acquired. You're using them to help individuals navigate these incredible, complicated systems, in order for them to have healthcare. You are a scientist, a cancer scientist. Tell us a little bit about what that means being in that role. 

[00:02:17] Eugene Manley: Thank you for asking, uh, technically by training, I am, my PhD is in molecular and cell biology and biochemistry. My master's is in biomedical engineering, and my bachelor's is in mechanical engineering. So, as a scientist, you know, broadly we look at, we ask questions, we develop hypotheses, we understand how things work, how they function, how they operate, and then how you could possibly modify or repair them and.

Let's see. I probably got started with my career in science when I was a kid. I did not know I was going to have a career in science, but I grew up as a chronic asthmatic. I was in a hospital probably 20 to 30 times a year from when I was five until I was 10. And then I just got appreciated, you know, what it was like being in a hospital, um, maybe 'cause I was in there way too much.

And then I also had an interest in engineering, uh, 'cause I watched a lot of transformers growing up. And so my, my life had always worked in this duality of science and engineering. And then I think my, um, high school science department head. Helped me get my first summer research job in 11th grade at the Michigan Cancer Foundation.

And then when I found out that you could do biomedical research, I sort of knew that there were programs I could apply for. So I started doing that every summer. And that's, in that sense, probably how I became a scientist. 

[00:03:54] Rita Burke: Thank you for answering that. Next question for our listeners, I certainly appreciate you telling us what led you into the world of science.

Would you be so kind as to tell us, explain for our listeners the term health equity, what's your understanding of that ology? 

[00:04:20] Eugene Manley: So we, we have a general definition of health equity that re, you know, revolves around creating solutions for communities or addressing problems. I think of it. More broadly, or maybe more specifically I think of health equity as intentionality.

It is about intentionally creating an intervention or interventions for a group that is experiencing a disparity or an equity so that then after your intervention is done, their survival or outcome is closer to the majority or whatever the baseline population is. So what that means is health equity does not solely mean it must just be black.

It must be Hispanic, it could be rural, it could be urban, it could be females, it could be Asian females with no history of smoking. So it just depends on the disease or context and then where is there an inequity, and then what can you do to address or mitigate it?

[00:05:27] Ellington Brown: Mr. Manley,, we have science, which is what you're into. We also have AI. How do you see these two pieces? I don't wanna say merging, but, uh, let's say, uh, run in parallel? 

[00:05:45] Eugene Manley: This is an interesting question. You know, now we have basically, at its root level, AI is just algorithms or data.

Um, broadly, they look at large swats of data and they try to make predictions of either how things behave, how things will behave, or how they will respond. Um, and we see AI in everything we do. Basically, it's in part of marketing, it's in healthcare. Uh, you know, we see it when doctors use now speech to text where they, um, have they get done with their patient appointments, they're speaking to a mic, and it will chart down notes.

And so that helps them accelerate time. We see it in lung cancer diagnosis. You know, we have low dose CT scanning, which can detect, you know, you can do, uh, x you know, low dose ct and you can look to see if there's. Uh, nodules and then do confirmatory stuff for lung cancer. How on its own, you know, the low dose CT data was not really, did not have a lot of dive diverse populations, but lately there's been an algorithm called civil that can look at low dose CT scans and predict on a scan.

A, a person will have lung cancer up to six years in the future. And, and, and, you know, normally that would not work, but they, the original dataset was not diverse, but then they tested it in the FQHC in Chicago. They tested it in a dataset at Harvard. Harvard, and then they tested in a dataset in South Korea and across those different data sets and still we're able to show this prediction of lung cancer.

However, there are some major, major pitfalls with AI. Because there's an adage that we have garbage in the garbage out. So often the data we have is still built primarily on European populations, non-diverse populations. And so all this goes into the systems, the algorithms, and then they're spitting out stuff, but it doesn't reflect diverse and underserved communities.

And you know, and then we have people that, you know, they're in this whole, we have AI, we have this intervention that's going to solve a problem, but then they've not done their due diligence to understand who is and who is not impacted by that problem. For example, you know, there was a group that wanted to use an AI to look at dense breast and say, we have an algorithm that can look at dense breast and to predict who will have, uh, breast cancer.

And then you're, you know, looking at this data and then you say, well, who was your training set? You know, the, the initial population you test your data on, and then who was your test set? Who was your set you validate? Um, and the whole data was, you know, rich suburban women at a major medical center. So you've already lost your argument for why your AI and algorithm would work, because one, you don't have a diverse population.

Two, because you probably have no diverse people on that staff, on that trial team, on that design team. Or in implementation, you miss the people who are most impacted. If you had did due diligence, you would know that black women tend to have dense breasts, and this is why they're at an increased risk of breast cancer.

So if you've already created an algorithm that doesn't even include them and you tested it on a group that's not include them, then I promise you your algorithm is garbage. It will not work at all. And so this is always the challenge when we're looking at ai. We have to make sure that those communities are in the design team in part of the, uh, access, engagement participation.

And you can't just come back later, say, oh, well, we'll fix it. You usually don't, because problems always get exacerbated when and when they're excluded from the beginning.

[00:09:45] Rita Burke: That is fascinating and I'm glad that you are speaking out. Against what you're seeing in the scientific and the real world. Talk to us about what you see then, what you consider to be a fair healthcare system. What should it look like and what should it feel like? 

[00:10:11] Eugene Manley: This is a very good question! Fair. A fair or a good health system would actually be one where you listen to the patients, you respect the patients, you acknowledge what they're saying, and you treat them with dignity and respect.

Over many years, I saw how my mom got mistreated by healthcare providers during her hospitalization, especially the nights that they would be so rude and dismissive. They would just be condescending and, and, and you can't do anything 'cause you're not there. And then I even had my own experience with medical racism after my own foot surgery last year where I had a complete concurrence with the orthopedic surgeon or podiatrist who did my surgery.

However, the hospital staff decided that this one's poor, black and on Medicaid, so clearly they don't deserve to have any quality care. So they took it upon themselves to lie in my records about my pain. Uh, the physical therapist said I had no pain and can ambulate 36 hours after surgery, which makes no sense when you have reconstructive surgery of a foot.

They tried to get me an early discharge notice, even though they didn't have it signed at the right time, and they fabricated when they signed it. They tried to say I had a caregiver at home, which I did not, which is the whole reason me and the surgeon were trying to get skilled nursing. They were just dismissive and rude and, and I, and even patient relations, patient advocacy.

After I got home, I called them twice and they did not call me back at all. They only finally called back after I sent a certified letter to them in hospital leadership detailing my experience in the hospital and how it was not guideline concordant care at all and how they completely iced the surgeon out of the medical records.

So he couldn't make the decisions that we had agreed to and it was not his fault. It was a whole hospital system effort. And so I made sure now that patients know when they go in the surgery that they need to have a medical proxy that can read their records. They need to make sure they document and read every single thing in real time, if there's anything wrong, you know, file certified letters with hospital leadership 'cause they have to respond.

Um, if it's a joint commissioned accredited hospital, make sure you file complaints with that. I file complaints with Medicaid. I file complaints with insurance. Uh, and so just make sure that you know everything is accurate because whatever you don't say or dis or con confront, then it becomes in your record and it stays.

And then insurance said, well, it's written. So don't. So I learned after my surgery, even though. A surgeon, were fine. Don't trust hospital systems. And, but you know, but this should not be surprising because we have so many black people, not just black, but many black examples of black people that have been just disregarded in care.

Um, you know, we had Serena Williams almost die from pulmonary embolism during pregnancy. We had Venus Williams issues with fibroids. You have me who has a biomechanics background, who knows how to advocate. And the surgeon was not the issue. The whole hospital staff, and I'm not saying that I'm great and I should, someone should care about me.

But if you did all that stuff to me, then how many other poor underserved patients are showing up in Mount Sinai Queens? And then you're getting early discharge notices, you're getting forced out, and then you're gonna have readmissions or complications that maybe end up in other hospitals and you don't even know what has happened.

And so I think that is more. Garling, but you know, it's not just a me thing. I mean, this happened to my mom and so many other black folk, but many people don't know how to articulate it or write about it or verbalize it. 

[00:14:06] Ellington Brown: Good. Doctor, why do you think it's important that we have plain language, just language, everyday language, so that individuals, uh, marginalized or not are able to go to the hospital or to their doctor and come out knowing exactly what the problem is or not?

[00:14:36] Eugene Manley: I think, well, plain language is related to health literacy and, and, and, and this is not just a US or Canada issue. We have a horrible. Lack of health literacy around the world and health literacy is really the ability to read, understand, interpret medical information, then make best decisions for yourself.

But we, we do, uh. Not do a good job of learning the stuff. Uh, if you look at medical charting, you know, electronic health records is written with medical jargon, and that's not understandable by the public. I mean, I saw many instances of my mother would get notes and then the instructions would be on page five, but I promise you, because she didn't go to college and she can't understand, she's not gonna get to page five because it's just frustrating to read through it.

And as opposed to taking the time to explain it to her, the doctor, it was just in the instructions. Say, Nope, that's dereliction of duty. You have to be able to explain the stuff to your patients. You can't assume they know anything. Because often what happens with underserved and diverse patients is, you know, often, you know, we're

single breadwinners, we're often caregivers, we're caught caring for multi-family homes. We often have jobs that are front facing that don't allow you that luxury of, oh, I can take a day off work and then come back. No, typically you're frontline workers, so you may lose your job or you have a issue with transportation and or you have Medicaid and you get transport, but then transport can show up late or not at all.

And then it looks like you're not there and then you get labeled as non-compliant. So the ways we try to work around this and we try to create infographics at fifth to eighth grade level that break down medical terminology, um, some cancers, and then a disparity in those cancers. So at least people, we are saying, laying the foundation for people to understand what's out there.

And then hopefully as we get more materials out, they'll be able, then we'll be able to develop curriculum so then that they can. Going to that healthcare system with more understanding of your terminology and then be able to ask questions to help you navigate care. Like five questions you should ask before you go to a doctor's office.

Five things you should know before you go into surgery. Like five things you should know, um, about your diabetes or A1C. So we're working to slowly create these things so that people can understand it, but also see themselves reflected in the materials. 'cause often black and Hispanic patients are not represented in this material at all.

[00:17:18] Rita Burke: Uh, I feel confident that you are doing work that will move people along the spectrum, along their trajectory towards positive outcomes. I feel very happy about that. I feel a little troubled though when you, when you talk about people. Advocating on their own behalf. Because in the first instance, when you present yourself for healthcare, you're going through a lot of issues emotionally, spiritually, obviously.

Physically. And here you are, your energies that should go towards healing yourself, getting better. You have to be fighting against a system that is absolutely sad. But let's segue a little bit, and I would ask, who or what would you say is responsible for the person that you are to be?

[00:18:25] Eugene Manley: Oh, that's a very good question. I probably would say. The biggest influence on the person I am today was probably my science department head in my high school. Um, I went to Cas Tech in Detroit, which was a college prep school. We had all these curriculum. I think I was in chemical, biological curriculum and sort of, I spent a lot of time between, you know, anatomy, physiology, drafting, uh, but she saw that I had a aptitude for science.

Uh, no, I'm not gonna tell that story, nevermind. I just, uh, from one time, okay, I'll tell this story. It's a slight segue. I think in maybe 10th grade I was doing a science fair project and it was, we were looking at, I was, I had some kind of kit and was trying to do a qualitative analysis of proteins and amino acids.

So I didn't even know where I found this stuff 'cause I was just a weird kit. But I had this whole kit, did this project and it was all just different color. You, the proteins that changed color just based on what was in them. And then I made my poster and I'm thinking my science fair poster is done. And you know, we have, you know, and we had, you know, these, uh, peg boards and so you have to put, you know, three inch letters up.

And so the title was supposed to be a qualitative analysis of proteins and amino acids. And then I say, I'm done. And she looked, she's like, are you sure you're done? I was like, yes. And then she's like, are you absolutely sure? And I look at the letters and it was a qualitative anal cyst of proteins and amino acids.

And so I had to take down these letters and re-put them up and it, it's so, you just never forget that moment. But, but beyond that, she understood, you know, how all the kids worked and operated. And she always tried to put us in positions. To get us to where we needed to go, even though we didn't know it.

So, but when I graduated she always told me, you know, you are independent, stubborn, you have a DHD and you don't like micromanagement, so you're gonna have a road less travel, but you are going to make an impact and this is gonna be on your terms and damn she right it every step of the way. 'cause it has not been easy and I've never followed any other guidelines or instructions.

I just sort of beat to my own horn and I'll do what I think is right. So 

[00:20:56] Ellington Brown: I think you are the perfect candidate for writing the how to book, how do you navigate in and out of the hospital unscathed because I think, as Rita mentioned earlier, I think that it.

It doesn't help the patient. It's like a, another, uh, sickness that's being introduced because here you are, you're laying in the bed, you're sick, obviously, because if you weren't, you wouldn't be in the hospital. But, okay, so here you are, you're in the hospital, you're sick. You know the, the doctors are coming with these papers and they want you to sign them, or they want to read them to you and then walk out without actually explaining what they do.

So how do you, how do you explain to a patient that they have rights and it is their right to ask questions. It is their right to disagree with the doctor or the, the technician, and ask for another one if necessary. I. And all of these things that you've been saying are absolutely wonderful. And they should be recorded in some kind of, in some type of how, how to book.

You've got them, you've got the knowledge. It's obvious. And I'm sure you could probably whip the book out in, you know, a couple of weeks because, well, you are prolific and it shouldn't take, it shouldn't take much for you to, to do that. 

[00:22:38] Eugene Manley: Thank you for putting, thank you for putting, I thank you for putting ideals in my head.

[00:22:44] Ellington Brown: No, I, you know, I, I think that, uh, that idea was already in your head. I, I don't think that's anything that's, that's new. So, uh, based on your lung cancer work, where do, uh, collaboration efforts succeed or stall?

[00:23:12] Eugene Manley: I think lung cancer is a very interesting disease. It is still the leading cause of cancer death in the US and worldwide. However, it still gets less funding and attention than breast, colon and prostate. And due to the heavy anti-smoking campaigns of the eighties, unfortunately, many people think that you only get lung cancer because of a history of smoking.

While smoking is probably responsible about 60 to 70% of cases. There are people that get lung cancer that don't smoke. There are, you know, radon, indoor cooking modules, air pollution, all these are other risk factors. However, patients get stigmatized so much when they have lung cancer 'cause you're assumed to be a person with a history of smoking.

And so that's a challenge. So a lot of times partnerships can move. But it's always a question of who is involved in the partnerships and what populations are included. Part of the reason I launched our lung cancer interventions or slash health equity summit was because over years I saw that patients were not really represented in many of the websites on the orgs, on the materials and leadership.

And I said, you know, we have all this work. How are we make, how do we make sure that we bring their issues to the forefront? And so for my, I developed a mentorship and training program. At Longevity for a health equity, uh, clinician fellows, and then at the SHE or STEM and Cancer Health Equity Foundation.

I launched our lung cancer summit, and my big thing was we have diverse people at all levels. We have faculties from HBCUs, uh, small institutions, medium sized institution, large institutions. We make sure that every session and panel has diverse representation by race, ethnicity, not just, you know, not just to all male panel like I I get.

You cannot say you're doing health equity if you have a panel with. Five white leaders just then. You're not you, you, you've got to, and if you say you can't find them, that, that means you're not really trying hard enough. Because if you, if that's your go-to excuse, that's always is we can't find them, they're there.

Then the question is, why are you not reaching them? And then you think about your clinical trial sites and your trial team site. Do these teams reflect the community where you're trying to reach them? Do you actively engage with the community beyond just your cancer stuff? And do they trust you? Do they even see you?

Or do you only come around when you want, uh, to do a trial? And, and those are things that go into it because there's enough mistrust from just the historic past of what we've had, you know, beyond just Tuskegee, the Guam mater, STD studies, the Holmesburg prison stuff. Even most recently, the willed Body program at University of North Texas.

So you, you really work to build more, the things go well when you have multi-stakeholder partnerships that cover the different patient groups or communities that are impacted by the disease. And they are really not a side piece, but a complete part of the conversation and the discussion. 

[00:26:33] Rita Burke: That's that statement that you made that you cannot claim to have health equity with a panel of five white males at the table.

That is absolutely profound. It is so true, and I'm surprised that in the year 2026, people are still thinking, using that kind of model to do whatever it is that they're doing. That, that, that saddens me. But I guess that's the reality. Could you ever think of a time. When you had to say enough, whether it's professionally or personal,

[00:27:19] Eugene Manley: uh, enough. In which context? I know that's a silly question, but which context? 

[00:27:25] Rita Burke: Anytime when you have to say I've had enough, 

[00:27:29] Eugene Manley: I will probably say there was one job I had where I had a prolific micromanager and they wanted to make sure everything, like they wanted to be on all of my e read, all my emails, be on all of my phone calls, and I said, I already have a PhD.

I'm in talking to people in biotech for years like. How many, how much, how, how long are we gonna do this? And it went on for 10 months and I said, fine, I'm just gonna start looking for a new job. It was like, this is insulting. Like I'm a PhD. I, I don't you, you're not gonna, you know, you're not gonna critique me how to write emails if you want me to.

Tone, yes, but not 10 months in. I'm like, I don't need you sitting on my phone calls. And then when I have to follow up with a client, you know, I don't want, you know, I ready to reply and then I send you the email and you don't, you sit on it for three, four days and then get upset. When I said, well, you didn't wait for my response, said, I'm not sitting, I, I don't, I'm not your child.

I don't need to be babysat. And so I started looking for new jobs and finally I left that org. I said, I don't need this. Like, I refuse to be denigrated like this for no reason. I'm like, for no compelling reason except they apparently were obsessed with somehow showing that they were good and great and that I didn't know anything and.

And, and unfortunately sometimes when you're in hierarchical systems, which are many jobs out there, you don't get to speak up and even 'cause when you're a new person in, you know, sometimes they assume that the longer you're in the org the more you know and the more the better an employee you are. But that doesn't necessarily mean you're a good person or a good leader.

And so you have to always, especially when you're black going into these spaces, you have to always gauge what can I actually say and not say. And there's no, um, which we don't talk about, we are often always under the microscope. So no matter what you say can and will be used against you. So don't give the people, I hate to say it, don't give 'em anything else they can use.

Just do your job, do it well, and keep it moving. And so, um, so that's sort of what I, I just kept my head down and then I applied for jobs and got out, 

[00:29:41] Ellington Brown: We, work in. Situations, companies, organizations where they treat us unfairly and we feel as a people that we have no choice but to eat whatever they're pushing out. It's quite un, it's quite unfair. Why can't we talk about health equity, without also talking about who enters and stays in STEM. And can you explain what STEM is? 

[00:30:25] Eugene Manley: So STEM, well, there's two versions, well, there's more, several versions of the word STEM. Traditional STEM is science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

The STEM I use at SH Foundation. S-C-H-E-Q is science, technology, engineering, mathematics and medicine. And some people use steam. So the A represents arts, but it's still science, technology, engineering, arts and math. They're all kind of variations of the same. And the idea was that you're trying to get kids to understand they can go in these spaces, what kind of careers they can have, and then what they can do, um, once they are in this career.

So, um, there really is no dis at least am I, you know, health equity is, can be part of STEM and it should be part of STEM. Well, it should be part of STEM if it's a health application. However, we are in a right now environment where we have all these ban on DEI words, and I don't know why people think DEI is so bad.

Um, and the only reason we have the DEI was because. It was mandated by law because of all the stuff that happened in the past that kept people from getting positions, getting in universities, getting advancements. And the only reason we have DEI is really because of the threat of lawsuits or legal, it was legal precedent, not necessarily altruistic desire to really help these communities.

So now we're just having a turn back of that stuff. But when we still don't have representation in these spaces, whether it's science or engineering, then we get things that are developed that, you know, we have pulse, oximeters, and somehow don't, um, capture OB degeneration correctly. We have, you know. Some skin cancer things that don't pick up well on black skin.

So we have devices, oh well we can identify people by facial a architecture, then it doesn't work on dark skin or you know, sometimes the faucets in the bathroom, they don't work on black skin. So, so this is a design flaw issue. And then when you don't, you have to intentionally think outside of the box, like who is broadly going to use something and how will it impact them?

And, and that takes reflection and emotional intelligence and, and foresight that a lot of people don't want to or are not able to have. 'cause they're so caught in the short term, what can we do right now to make money right away? And, and that's generally it's more about money than who is impacted. 

[00:33:09] Rita Burke: So what I'm hearing you say then is the bottom line is money.

And not necessarily the best possible outcome for people who are seeking medical or health attention. We are on SpeakUP! International. We're having this very vibrant and interesting and fascinating conversation with Mr. Eugene Manley, who is a scientist and who is heavily into health equity. What would you say Mr. Manley is the best piece of advice that you have ever been given? Best piece of advice you've ever been given? 

[00:33:54] Eugene Manley: Uh, best piece of advice was also given by my science department head. She said, you. Um, I think she knew I had a DHD before I was diagnosed with it. And so she knew I was going to go through the world on my own accord and she said, you beat to your own drum.

It's gonna be hard and difficult for you, but just keep moving forward doing what you do to help people make an impact and eventually you will get to a place where you will have maxim impact for others and just keep pushing forward though. That was sort of the, that was the best piece of advice I was ever given.

Say my role will never be easy and man, she ever write it is not been easy by any stretch of the imagination. And, you know, and the stuff I've dealt with just the last year with the fracture and the injury. And all that stuff that would've, and my mother's death, it would've crumbled most people. But we just have to, you know, unfortunately we have to keep marching on because time doesn't wait for us, and I don't mean that flippantly, but time keeps marching whether you are in time engaged or not.

So you've gotta try to pull it together and keep it together and, and still try to find a path forward and see if you can find some brightness in the, in the, the sadness and darkness. 

[00:35:15] Ellington Brown: There are so many sad stories. I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of sad stories where marginalized individuals are not getting the care that they deserve that they need.

And the medical powers that be. Seem to have their own thoughts about how to deal with marginalized individuals. So what patterns have you seen over the past 20 years of, I guess I can use the word mentoring, uh, that explain why diverse talent is pushed out? We already know about how they treat marginalized patients, but how are the talent like individuals like you are systematically pushed to the side?

[00:36:25] Eugene Manley: Thank you for asking that question. Um, it's sort of the same way that patients are pushed to the side. If you look at academic institutions. There's still a hierarchy and a system and a structure, and those people that tend to be able to go and do PhDs and go through that whole process of being woefully underpaid, grad student and postdoc, tend to come from well off families that have money and resources, they can afford to be underpaid, but when you're first gen, low income, you don't have the luxury of money to sit on.

And so that's what I navigated. Um, also the system was not really designed for often for us to be in that place anyway. And so, you know, you're trying to write grants and get funding, but depending on who you're working under, you know, they have this whole a academic centric notion that you must only do things A, B, C, D, and E way, which is.

Not necessarily helping a first gen or low income scholar when, you know, we can't travel to all these conferences, we can't pay for travel upfront. Um, we often are probably dealing with family issues as well and we're, when they still call and we can't go home, um, you know, we're dealing with the structural systemic racism.

You know, still getting profiled on campus, still getting profiled in the city and you're worried if you're driving a car, are you gonna be profiled 'cause you're black and, and you know, and you just never know when, or if you go out to a restaurant, are you gonna not be in because of a random dress code?

I've dealt with all of these things, um, at different times. So, um, the question really is if you can find a mentor that actually understands you as a person and wants to help you, you will do well. But that is actually few and far apart. For many of us, I've seen often if we speak about the issues that impact black scholars, you often will get pushed out of a lab or you won't get funding or you won't get letters of recommendation.

If you do too much advocacy for diverse scholars, you might not get letters of recommendation. And so you just have to try to do your stuff on the side for these communities 'cause it's still needed. And you know, in our now often there are a lot of mentorship and training programs that have been out there.

And this was before we had this anti DEI stuff, but often you would get the money and the funding, but that wouldn't necessarily show that you were growing or excelling because, and the day the PI can still is the, the person who runs a lab and they can determine basically your fate. And so it's group dynamics and you know, how much of you are the favorite and how much are you willing to sometimes suck up.

And I'm just from Detroit and I don't do those things. So, uh, and so you're fighting systems that. Have a structured, both adhere to and then when you're me, you know, that doesn't work for me. And so, uh, I've seen a lot of people, I've seen people have their funding that they've received get given to someone else.

I've seen people not get fellowships I've seen. Um, it's just been a slog. And then, you know, and then you don't even know if you can ask for letters of recommendation because you've seen how either you get treated when they talk to you or how someone else gets treated when they try to leave the lab and you're like, okay, I see how this is going to go.

So a lot of us don't bother asking our PIs for recommendations. We try to see if we can find someone else at another part of the university or outside to write letters. 'cause you, if you can't trust your advisor to write something good about you, and I'm not saying they have to write glowing, but you expect some kind of modicum of respect.

And if you can't get it, then you just don't rely on them. So it makes it harder then for you to advance.

[00:40:18] Rita Burke: So the struggle continues. I have two what I wanna call rocket fire questions to throw at you. And I want no more than two sentences in response. The first one is black joy. 

[00:40:39] Eugene Manley: Black joy? Something we all wish we had more often, but we don't routinely see. Um, generally the only times we'll see it maybe our family reunions when you have everyone at a cookout.

[00:40:56] Rita Burke: And my next rapid fire question is black excellence. What did you respond in two sentences? 

[00:41:04] Eugene Manley: Black excellence. This is the appreciation of the work we do to. Produce great things in the face of adversity and barriers and challenges, and it's the continued willpower to push forward regardless of what other people say to you.

[00:41:25] Ellington Brown: You know, Rita, that was cheating. Okay? She whipped in there and got two questions in there, and so I, I, I had to call her out on that. I still love you, Rita, but you know, no.

So my, my question, my one question is, uh, can you cook? Im always hungry. Okay. So I, I'm gonna admit that, and so, yep. I ask everybody, you know, can you cook? If you can, you know, send, you know, you don't have to do it right now, but just send me your email address and we'll figure out how I can get to New York so I can slide my knees under your table so I can eat 

[00:42:11] Eugene Manley: To, to a degree I can cook. Uh, you know, I have a ADHD, so I don't like to spend a ton of time in the kitchen, but I can cook. I mean, I'm not great. I'm okay. I can do a stir fry, I can do stews, I can do pastas, I can do a good chicken stir fry. So I guess I can cook. 

[00:42:29] Ellington Brown: Okay, so what's the answer? So make sure you send me your email address.

Okay, Rita, it's your turn 

[00:42:37] Rita Burke: so you can cook. So my next question then is tea or coffee? 

[00:42:45] Eugene Manley: Neither. I am a neither. I spent a year studying in England and everyone just looked at me like, what? I have a ADHD, I don't drink coffee. You give me coffee. If you wanna see me fall asleep, you give me coffee, I'm one of the A DHC types.

You give me coffee, I will crash. Um, I'm not against tea, I just don't drink it routinely, but I don't, I'm not anti tea. I just don't drink coffee.

[00:43:10] Ellington Brown: Wow! And you say that you're a, you're a black person and you know that I, I just find that to be absolutely. Uh, amazing. , for, there are a lot of, uh, of our listeners who have to deal with going, you know, back and forth to, you know, the hospitals and they're, you know, they're overwhelmed.

They're, they're discouraged. So where do you see the most realistic opportunities for change to happen right now?

[00:43:49] Eugene Manley: I think the best area, even though tricky would be probably nurse navigation, it is now in some instances, billable, at least in the US by cp, I think CPT or the codes. So if we have nurse navigation, patient navigation as part of care, then we sort of bridge the patient and the hospital system or the healthcare system, and then they're better able to get their questions answered, get things, um, addressed upfront, and not wait to get to the appointment.

Because, you know, typically you, your doctor might only have 15 minute, 20 minutes with you in the room. And then if you have a whole bunch of issues, how do you prioritize what you get to? And so, and sometimes you just have to keep asking your questions. So it's, it's a tricky challenge, but I think navigation is one space where we could make, uh, some.

Change. And if we could get more primary care doctors, we have a serious deficit of them. But that's just because of all the way, um, venture capital is sort of buying up practices and, and so it's just, and you know, primary care providers don't get paid a lot and they have so much more paperwork. So it, that's the second area.

So I gave you two answers. 

[00:45:07] Rita Burke: It's interesting that you tell that story about doctors and how much time they have to sit and have conversations, real conversations, meaningful conversations with, uh, the people that they see. Uh, I know someone who lives in Florida and she told me not long ago that she went to see her doctor and she told her about all of her concerns and issues.

And after a while I think the doctor got so cheesed off, so fed up. She walked out to the room and she did not come back. She didn't even know that the conversation was over. She didn't even know. Could you do a lot of heavy lifting? And, and you've alluded to the fact you have attention deficit and stuff like that.

So what do you do, Mr. Eugene Manley to bring joy into Eugene Manley's life? 

[00:46:04] Eugene Manley: That's a tough question 'cause I'm probably my own hardest critic, um, for a lot of times. Rita I, I listen to, am I admitting this? I listen to techno and house music. I just need, I can't believe I'm admitting this. I listen to music that's sort of, I need some kind of background stimuli that's just noise.

And then it'll help me sort of channel and focus. Um, I used to love to travel a lot, but like I said, last year was just really hard with the surgery, so hopefully I can get back to traveling again at some point.

[00:46:37] Ellington Brown: Wow! So you like techno uh, music and, and house music. Is that, did I, did I get that right? 

[00:46:48] Eugene Manley: Yes. 

[00:46:50] Ellington Brown: It's too late! You've already admitted now, so you might as well stand tall and say, yeah, I said it, it's too late now. You've already, you've already let the cat out of head out of the bag. Oh, I guess I should go like this, right?

Is that, should I, should I, should I do that as well? 

[00:47:06] Eugene Manley: No, no, 

[00:47:08] Ellington Brown: He said, so please don't do that. Okay! It is now 2026 and I can't believe it. We're almost finished with the second month of a new year. How can individuals marginalize or not put themselves in a position of leverage when they are dealing with the medical forces that be?

[00:47:42] Eugene Manley: Um, I would say two things. One, try to have a medical proxy if you aren't certain of what you know. Um, when you go to your appointments, have a set of questions that you want addressed. And then for any medications you on are gonna be administered, ask what these medications are, what they do, what are the side effects.

And lastly, you know, if you have some kind of other condition you want to address, ask them, you know, why they came to that conclusion. Were there any alternative? Uh. Possible diagnoses and how can you confirm what's best for you? Don't just always listen to what the doctor says. Uh, unfortunately we have a whole generation of people, not so much this newer generation, but a lot of people in the past have been told You always listen to your doctor, but that's not necessarily always accurate or true.

So still, you have to be prepared to look out for yourself. And this is, it is a fine line between listening to your doctor and using Dr. Google. 'cause Google is not gonna always give you the right stuff. So it's, it's sort of a, yeah, it's a balancing act to be honest.

[00:48:57] Rita Burke: You talked a little bit about AI and healthcare. I wanna know a little bit more please. 

[00:49:09] Eugene Manley: So, you know, like I said, AI is really. Getting implemented more broadly. You know, it's being used sort of in hospitalization, well in hospitals to determine maybe if a person's at risk, you know, sort of they have some algorithms that, you know, how close are you to the normal population or are you to a disease And they're sort of, you know, based on a series of questions or surveys, you are more likely to be diagnosed with X.

So it can be used to sort of triage patients towards care delivery or not. You know, it can also look at interventions. It can sometimes look at social determinants of health. Um, when you have a system that looks at social determinants of the health, it is much likely better to be able to get you services that you need.

Um, we don't have a lot of systems that completely incorporate SDOH, but some do. Um, like I said, there are, you know, we are using AI in some cases to facilitate trial enrollment and recruitment. Um, on the one hand that can help you find populations you might not get access to, but at the same token, you still need that human touch and interaction to be able to get them.

And, and no matter how much people think AI is going to speed up what we can do, at the end of the day, it will not replace interaction with a human doctor or nurse actually talking, you can still cannot replace human interaction.

[00:50:43] Ellington Brown: I agree with you and I agree with you on more than just the medical profession. I think that individuals opportunist. Who are using AI to, let's say, get rich quick, are finding that, uh, everyone's not as successful as they, uh, hope to be. And in this situation, I think that holds true in the medical profession.

You cannot hope that AI is going to be the end all be all, and we're going to now have a new God, which we certainly don't need at this point. We already ha we already have a king. How do you release individuals from that saying or that belief that doctors know what they're talking about and whatever they say, we must go along with it?

[00:51:50] Eugene Manley: I think. It goes to the framing that at the end of the day, you still know your body better than anyone else. And you have to go in there with the confidence that you have the right to ask questions that are directly impacting your care, delivery and outcomes. And you are, you should be able to demand that.

And if you cannot get that answer from your doctor, then you are within your right to go get a second opinion. And depending on your insurance, you are also within your right to go get another doctor. You don't have to stay with a doctor that is rude, disrespectful, and, and unyielding. Like you don't have to stay with a doctor.

And I think that's how you own your own healthcare. 'cause you, you are, you are still responsible for you and, and, and so protect yourself and don't just be told answers without getting clarity.

[00:52:41] Rita Burke: I, I quite agree with you. People should not stay with a doctor who does not respect them and treat them with the dignity that it is they deserve. And also, when we were talking about AI and healthcare, you mentioned that we still need that human touch. There's no question about that. There's need for that human to human relationship.

There's no question about that. So talk to us about when was the last time Mr. Eugene, Mandy do something that was different, something new?

[00:53:21] Eugene Manley: Uh, come to think, I haven't even publicly announced it yet. I just, uh, launched my LLC on Friday, so I haven't even publicly announced it yet. It's, um, innovation for Impact Consulting, LLC. And, um, I'm still working on the website, but it's gonna be a landing page broadly. It's just gonna be a broad, uh, more specific application of the skill sets that I have.

So we're gonna help organizations with grant writing. We're gonna do strategy and leadership. Uh, we're gonna do a lot of my public speaking from there. And then we do a program training program, mentorship program development. So that's, we're working on, um, I'm working on getting that set up officially this week.

[00:54:07] Ellington Brown: You remind me of an octopus! Your hands are ev you know, your hands, your tentacles are everywhere. You're in all forms of science. Uh, you work with, patients and I, and you do have a skillset that a lot of surgeons don't have. And that's, and that happens to be, uh, empathy and to know how to interact with patients.

Some doctors. Don't, I remember having a doctor, my first doctor here in Canada, and I went in because I had, I had busted my, my arm. Well, I, I had just told him that I had a lot of pain and I, you know, and I'm wondering, do I need to get like x-rays or something? Well, he had already written a prescription. I hadn't even been in the room, you know, five minutes.

And so you can see how, uh, the medical system sometimes is, is geared to listen and respond to individuals differently based on the amount of melanin that they have in their, in their skin. Uh, as we, uh, wrap up today's conversation with, uh, the good doctor, 

there are so many technical challenges that, uh, we face not as patients.

And then for those who are in the medical profession, it's amazing how all of the things that we talked about, they kind of run on both sides of the fence. So if you are feeling like you're being pushed out as a doctor, the same holds true for individuals who happen to be a part of the medical profession and they're looking for healthcare and they're being pushed out, not necessarily because they don't have insurance.

They, you know, they're just the, they just happen to be the wrong race. I, I wanna thank you. So much for taking the time to talk to us. And you know, whether, you know, you, as I said earlier, you are a patient or you are a caregiver student, or you happen to be an educator or a decision maker, technical assistant.

Do you have to stay informed? And that's one of the things that Eugene mentioned today, over and over, that you need to be informed. And, uh, my last question, uh, to you is, what are the first three things that an individual should do when they are attempting to access the medical system?

[00:57:08] Eugene Manley: First three things. When a patient is attempting to access the medical system. Since that's an open-ended question. So one, find a provider that works in your disease space that understands likely to understand what you're going through. If you want someone that's diverse, then try to find a doctor that has your lived experience.

'cause we, we have shows that black patients tend to have better outcomes when they are seen by black providers. It doesn't mean it's always true, but it just, because we often don't see any providers that look like us, then some of those stress and walls come down 'cause you feel you're gonna be listened to.

Um, I said, ma, make sure you know what your prescriptions are, uh, what they work for, what their dosage is. And then always, um, for any procedures, be able to ask what this procedure is, why is it necessary, and what do the results mean? So I think those are three and three a maybe. 

[00:58:10] Ellington Brown: Yeah, we'll go. We'll, we'll, we'll take that and, and thank you very much.

Uh, Rita, do you have any closing remarks that you'd like to state? 

[00:58:20] Rita Burke: Yes, uh, I, I take my imaginary hat off to Mr. Eugene Manley for the great work we are doing out there to help people, especially those folk that cannot advocate on their own behalf, try to navigate their way through a very complex system that we call the healthcare system.

And there's no doubt that they've gotta arm themselves with all kinds of skills and abilities and support systems in order to achieve. A decent outcome and, uh, and the walls are stacked against you. If, as Elton said, there's melanin in your skin, but our ancestors were always hopeful, and I'm sure you will agree with me, that in spite of the struggles we need to continue to be with them.

So I thank you so much for what you bring to the table, what you bring to the world, to what you bring to the healthcare field. And I say continue doing what you're doing and more. 

[00:59:48] Eugene Manley: Thank you so much. Um, it was a pleasure to be here. Hope that this is informative for your audience. And if they're trying to find me, they can either email me at, um, e manly@schq.org or info at innovation for impact, the f fo FOR consulting llc.com.

So that way I can either help with programs, grant writing, helping people, um, ask the questions they need or any kind of consulting they might need help with.

[01:00:17] Ellington Brown: Thank you so much. And, uh, I'm sure that we're gonna talk again because I'll be dropping you little emails every now and again asking Where's that book? 

[01:00:28] Eugene Manley: And you're gonna be asking for the, uh, to come to eat. 

[01:00:31] Ellington Brown: Oh, yeah! So I'll be there. I want fried chicken! 

[01:00:37] Eugene Manley: Oh goodness. But you now you put an ideal in my head and I did not need another ideal.

So I just want you to know this is your fault. If I write a book. 

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