[00:00:10] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! 

[00:00:23] Rita Burke: As you're aware, on SpeakUP! International, we have conversations with people we consider to be community builders. Today is no exception. We're speaking with Chenai Kadungure. Who is a Pan-Africanist and equity champion who leads programs and projects in Africa, the Caribbean, and North America.

Prior to the role as the executive director of the Black Physicians Association of Ontario, she worked for organizations like Success Skills for Change and Care Canada. I sits on several boards and usually she is very, very busy doing advisory work. She is Zimbabwean by culture, by Birth, and Canadian.

And a Canadian who thinks global and ask Local. Chenai is a proud Rotarian and founding member of Global Partners In Peace. Today on SpeakUP! International, we want you to welcome our guest who will continue to tell her story Chenai Kadungure!

[00:01:46] Chenai Kadungure: Thank you! 

[00:01:49] Ellington Brown: Hopefully you had several cups of coffee. I'm on my third, so I am charged up and I am definitely ready to go! So can you share a little bit about your upbringing in Zimbabwe and how did it mold your worldwide perspective? 

[00:02:13] Chenai Kadungure: Yes. Um, so I am Shauna, uh, in Zimbabwe.

We have three, three languages. I grew up in the capital city, Harare. Um, and my parents made sure that I was exposed, uh, to as much of the world as possible. Um, my father, his, his older brother was one of the six men who brought independence to Zimbabwe. And so growing up, even conversations on the fire were all about liberation and how you treat your neighbor.

And so I think that shaped who I am today. I'm also a Rotarian and, um, in interact in high school, they talk about service above self and that was something that I carried on into my career. So I think all of that time, uh, shaped who I am today. 

[00:03:06] Rita Burke: As a matter of fact, you're beginning to respond to one of our later questions.

We'll talk about that later. It sounds to me as if your dad was a community builder and you to are community builder. So then. Tell us, uh, about your role as a Pan-African equity champion. What's involved in that? 

[00:03:28] Chenai Kadungure: I think. There is so much division in blackness, and a lot of it has to do with almost like the, what we call tribalism, right?

The idea that, you know, I am, it's taking that, that identity that I am Zimbabwean first and then the, the. Concerns of other black people do not, uh, affect me. Um, yet I've always said, I think that was actually the scourge and the, and the curse of colonialism that we created these splits because we've always been diverse, but we weren't always in conflict with one another.

Um, and so for me, when I say Pan-Africanist, I, you know, um, I had the pleasure of meeting, um. Donnie Donnie Mack a few weeks ago, and he calls it being a humanist. So you care about the humanity in every person. And so for me, when I say Pan-Africanist, I actually still mean that, I mean humanist, but I understand that there is a, uh, very deep.

A deep hate ridden cruelty that specifically the people who are black, uh, have been given in time, not just historically, but even today. Uh, and so when I say that for me, that's what it is, being a Pan-Africanist is seeing people of African descent thrive and succeed and have pride in their own identities as well, uh, and care about each other.

[00:04:51] Ellington Brown: So what inspired you to move from Zimbabwe to Canada and how did that influence your career path? 

[00:05:05] Chenai Kadungure: Definitely. So when I was 18, I went to Uni University of Cape Town in South Africa, and I spent. Six years in Cape John, South Africa. Afterwards. I was in Johannesburg for five years, uh, growing small black-owned businesses because the unemployment rate was very high.

At that time, I reached a glass ceiling as a foreign, um, a foreign, uh, black person in South Africa because if you are not South African, uh, they were sort of like challenges, not just around xenophobia, but also. You know, there was an understanding that in higher levels of leadership, we need to have essentially black South African people, and there were limitations to what I could go on to do.

Um, so in needing a change of scenery, I just felt called. Uh, and I think there's some friends, uh, in church who had just been sensing that it was now my time to, uh, leave the continent actually, and, and see something new. So I, I was in the USA. On a rotary piece, the fellowship, it's like a full ride, almost like a, a Fulbright, um, at Duke.

Uh, duke, uh, duke, and UNC. It's like a joint Duke at UNC program in North Carolina. So I spent, uh, two years in North Carolina before moving to Canada.

[00:06:25] Rita Burke: It's 

[00:06:25] Chenai Kadungure: Oh, and how it shaped me. Yeah, sorry. How it shaped me, I would say. Um, coming to Canada as a newcomer is its own humbling experience. Uh, and so a lot of the work I did, um, when I finally started working in Canada was looking at exactly at, at exactly that. How do we make it that people who come to Canada feel welcome and don't have to start from scratch because we somehow believe the quality of work in other countries is not up to par.

[00:06:54] Rita Burke: I think it is remarkable. It is fascinating. It's interesting that you talk about hitting the glass ceiling in South Africa as an outsider. Never, I never thought about that and never thought about that. I never looked at life like that, but that's fascinating. I find Now talk to us about your role as the ED of the Black Physicians Association of Material.

What, what is that like? 

[00:07:25] Chenai Kadungure: I would say it is the best describe, best description I can give is, is we are deeply in public health. I think because of our name, people are, assume we're just a membership organization and we only exist for our members. Um, but there are two, there are two arms to the people we work with.

One is. Our membership is from pre-med level. So people who haven't even started medical school or, or are just thinking of, of a career in medicine all the way to a retired physician and we are their wraparound hub. So their wellness, networking, training and mentorship, finding opportunities for them, really celebrating them.

That's what we do because black physicians are 2.5% of the physician, overall physician population in Canada. Um, and. That number is not a natural number. It's by design. There's a lot of exclusion, uh, of black medical learners. So some of our work is actually advocating for them. But the other arm, and this is how we link the two, is we care about improving the health of black Ontarians.

So we do programming that will allow for culturally appropriate care. And we've seen that it makes a difference when people are receiving care from people who look like them. So racial concordance, uh, they, they, they've done the research and they've seen that people can get better care outcomes. Um, we became prominent as an organization during the pandemic in particular because, you know, black community was very much left behind.

We had to fight for community. Um, and we also had to meet community where it was at. When there was high sort of fear and even worry, fear about the vaccine and everything else, we needed people who looked like the community to be talking to them about it. Uh, we were in the barbershops, the churches, the mosques.

We were where the community is. 

[00:09:19] Ellington Brown: Wow. Amazing! You are doing that work now, how did your experiences at organizations like the Black Youth Success and Skills for Change, how did that prepare you for your current role? 

[00:09:40] Chenai Kadungure: Definitely I'd say, um, at Skills for Change, I oversaw the Employment Ontario work, which is you.

In essence, pretty much helping newcomers bridge into working in Canada. So I had already gone through the challenges, and so that's what helped me do that work. When I started with the physicians, there was an African refugee crisis, and so I did feel like they were themes of those similar challenges and I think there is a sameness to any challenges that we face because of being black.

So that equity lens as well, I was using some of that work and sometimes you'd have even grown a network, right? That cares about it. To give you an example, I think, um, I worked closely with Toronto Pearson when I was at Skills for Change and then when I was now working with, um, the youth as well. We started sort of like reconnecting with Toronto Pearson and seeing how much they care about, uh, black youth in, in Peel.

So I think some of it, it feel, it felt like a continuation. It didn't feel like I stopped what I was doing. I shifted in organizational focus, but I think the community we're serving has always really been the same. 

[00:10:52] Rita Burke: Two things you said that resonate with me. The first one is you talked about culturally appropriate care.

Now was the Black Physicians of Ontario involved, did the summit that was held a few weeks ago last week at Women's College Hospital, were they a catalyst behind that? 

[00:11:17] Chenai Kadungure: Well, I would say, I would say yes and no. We did not have any role in creating the event, but half of the panelists, the physicians who spoke, are our members who were in the event.

So there's a lot of, you know, I will not call it incestuous, but it is our, our physicians, if there's anything around black health that is being done, eight out of 10 times, my members are there because. It's such a small community and the specialists are so few. So if you're gonna talk about maternal health, there's like three people who you're talking to.

If you're looking at cancer, there's like, you know, core people working in prostate cancer or breast cancer. You know what I mean? So. Our physicians are always there. If you're gonna talk about black health, we are there. That's, that's what it is. We, we, that's why we're a strategic partner with the Ministry of Health in Ontario Health around black healthcare.

There's a, what we call a black health plan. Women's college Hospital also then in fact created their own black health plan coming out of seeing, um. The black health plan that we had sort of collaborated on with Ontario Health as well, and Black Health Alliance. 

[00:12:26] Rita Burke: And so the second thing that I said came onto that was your comment about culturally appropriate.

What does that look like? What does it feel like? What does it behave like? 

[00:12:38] Chenai Kadungure: There is a reason that, uh, just to say the anecdotal evidence from some of our community health centers show that 47% of black community are not attached to primary care and do not have a family doctor. So some people will say it's just about, you know, mistrust because of, you know, past experiences like Tuskegee.

But I think part of it is also this, the lacking in culture appropriate care. You are taught as a physician to see your patient for maximum 15 minutes. If you know the way we connect with each other within 15 minutes, you probably just know what my pain is. You might not know what the cause is or anything else.

So we find community health centers fair better working with racialized community, but it's also because their physician spends an average of 30 minutes. A patient. So what is considered, um, core practice in the traditional medical sense, uh, and the way the hospitals operate in our community health centers where we are treating community as.

Our friends, our family members were saying, how is your mother? That kind of bedside manner, that itself, you know, we overthink what culturally appropriate care is. It's just that see your patient as a human being. Um, listen to them, hear what they're saying. Um, it's, it's not something out of the box, but in the, in the sector, unfortunately, that's what it is.

And we, and we've seen how, um, the medical sector has really, uh. Propagated and fueled racism in the past. So as black physicians, we are able to sort of change that narrative and show that our type of care that we grew up with can be honored just as well. 

[00:14:28] Ellington Brown: You know, the one thing that I held onto as you were talking was the phrase, listen to them.

I remember when I first came to Canada and I had my first doctor. I could barely tell my doctor what was wrong and the pad was already out for him to write a prescription, and I thought that was strange. I says, I understand that this is socialized medicine. I said, but that was not part of the equation.

So yes, I do think that taking a little more time with patients can only. Uh, help the doctor diagnose and treat the patient, according to their specific needs. So now you've been on all of these boards and vice president of everything. So can you tell me what is the common denominator of these organizations that you've been a part of?

What seems to be the common thread? That runs through, that ran through or run through these organizations you've been a part of? 

[00:15:46] Chenai Kadungure: Definitely. Empathy. Empathy and trying to empower the underdog in the situation that's being looked at. So. I'm on the board for medicine to working with, uh, people who have developmental disabilities, like people who, in essence can't fight for themselves and need other people to fight for them.

And I would say another common thread is most of the areas I'm working in are severely underfunded, right? And it's underfunded not just because of what the patient looks like or where the patient comes from, um, but it's also, as you say, where, where the student grew up, but like the, these people are considered an, an other in the society that they're in.

And so for me, I, I've always felt like that's, it's not necessary. Part of protecting our own humanity is to protect the humanity in others. And so that's been the thread. If there's somewhere where it seems like there are laws that are oppressive, there's something that's creating an unnecessary barrier for people, we will be there.

That's, that's. How I find alignment, 

[00:16:53] Rita Burke: where do you get the time? And that's a, that's a rhetorical question. Where do you find the time? You, you talked about cultural appropriate care, and you mentioned that in our community, the doctors see the people they care for. As human beings, I add to that as their mother, as their father, as their brother, as their sister.

And then the care becomes human to human. There's no question about that. So talk to us a little bit about your role and the global partners in Peace. 

[00:17:36] Chenai Kadungure: Well, that is a Rotary Club because I've walked a journey with Rotary since I was. A child, pretty much. I'm even a, an assistant public image chair for Rotary.

Um. It's because the work there, rotary is a service organization, so this is everyone off the street who's just decided they want to serve community and volunteer. Um, in any country you go, Rotarians will be the ones who are wearing the, I would say the helper uniform. Uh, they're fundraising. For a school bus, they're fundraising for, you know, trying to keep the homeless warm in winter.

They are in a lot of the global south. They're the ones building, you know, schools, hospitals, and things like that. And in some countries, especially in countries where there's high levels of oppression, rotary is one of the few places that's actually doing what would be the, the government's work, right?

In those countries. Rotarians are people who, like we say, the motto is service above self. But there is a level of integrity and an equality that rotary insists on that allows you to sort of know that if you're in that community, um, you are working with like minds, people who are, it's an apolitical organization, it is Areligious, um, and there is a framework.

Rotary International uses, uh, 'cause it, it's the oldest service organization. I think it was started in like 1919 or something like that, 1910. Um, and it is, you have to, of all the things we say and do, there are four questions you must ask. And if your answer is no to one of them, you do not do the thing.

And so the first is, is it the truth? Is it fair to all concerned? Will it foster better cultural understanding and goodwill amongst, you know, the different people involved? And then is it beneficial to all concerned? So if there isn't that collective edifying principle to what you're doing, then you're not supposed to be doing it.

Um, and so for me those are, you know, all these ideas resonate and I've seen other people who are non Rotarians take on, you know, they call it the four-way test, take on the four-way test as. A way of doing, and I think it helps your personal integrity. So that's the, you know, global partners in peace. We are looking more at some of the global issues.

We do quarterly, uh, briefings on any huge conflict that's happening at the time. Our first one was actually on Gaza Palestine. Our second one was looking at everything that's going on, like in Sudan and in and in, you know, Western North Africa. Uh, the third one we did, I think we were looking at. The issues around, I guess, climate, um, some of the, you know, sort of the impacts of climate and, uh, displacement.

And our fourth one in December, I'll have to try and remember what it is. I'll have to remember what that one is. But it's, the idea is we want to say here is a place that is, we can't call it neutral. 

[00:20:46] Rita Burke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:46] Chenai Kadungure: But it wants to make sure that you know exactly what is happening in a conflict because. We've reached a time in life where we can't even necessarily trust what's in the media.

[00:20:57] Ellington Brown: Well that's, that is definitely true and if I remember correctly, the Rotary Club and Toastmasters Internationals, the structure is almost the same. They even used our old terminology for specific leadership roles. So I, I see where, uh, oh, by the way, uh, Rita and I are, are Toastmasters and that's why we're, you know, talking about that.

But, uh, yes. Good for that. Uh, yeah, thank you. And we, uh, basically we do love it. And uh, so I can see how the, these Toastmasters and Rotary, how they align, uh, with one another since they're both service organizations. So I find that to be fascinating. Now, all of these things that you're doing, what do you do for you?

Uh, what do you do for re relaxation? Do cook? 

[00:22:02] Chenai Kadungure: Listen, I have aADHD So cooking is not a relaxing process for me because you have to remember each step and not burn anything. So when I cook, I have to literally stay by the stove the entire time. I can't leave or I have to set alarms and things like that.

So I cook, but I definitely did not enjoy the. What I call it, uh, the mental administrative burden that is, uh, a lot of sort of, you know, do doing laundry, cooking mm-hmm. Those sorts of things. Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:34] Rita Burke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:35] Chenai Kadungure: Um, but I'll say that I really love, I love music. Um, I am a musical child. I sing, I am, you know, I used to be on the church choir, but uh, I had to say, okay, I need to, I need to slow down.

I'm sure God wants me to return to that. Um, and I. and you will!

I will, I need, I know I will have to slow down at some stage. I just figured that while I'm still young and have the energy to do these things, I'll do them. But a really big one, honestly, that I think keeps me going is travel. I love meeting people being around the world. You know, I live with a mantra of, you're my friend, you just don't know it yet.

So for me, when I meet strangers, it's so energizing for me. I am the definition of an extrovert. Um, so I really do enjoy life, even in all of this busyness and chaos that is. Me doing so many things. Um, but I'm also unmarried and I have no children right now, so I can afford to do some of those things.

When that, uh, situation changes, I think I'll definitely slow down. I'll be forced to. 

[00:23:42] Rita Burke: So obviously not obviously seems to me as if everything that you do, you do by choice and you enjoy that.

So talk to us about who or what you would say is responsible for the person that you are to be.

[00:24:07] Chenai Kadungure: Uh, I would say it is a mixture of definitely my father. I think, uh, my father was an affirming being. My growing up, I think having a safe and secure childhood is already a large game changer in the road to self-actualization. 'cause I'm passionate about self-actualization. Um, and I think, you know, it was the same with my grandmother.

I mean, she passed, uh, she passed within six months of um. My father as well. So I lost two very core, uh, loved ones when I was 17. But I would say they had been a large element in those formative years doing something like I say, like rotary being around people who lived their values. And I admire that, that impacted me.

So I've had lots of mentors along the way, uh, whether it's Elizabeth Za, Bonini, Ani, um. Eleanor, Marian, uh, I'm trying to think of all my current mentors now. Cindy. Um, even someone like Jean Augustine, um, she, you know, people who've just really shown that if you care about something and you just take caring about that thing, uh, you know, we have that word.

Your gift will make a room for you. I think caring about an issue. We'll create opportunities and spaces for you around that. So mentorship has been a large role of it. Um, and of course my faith. I think God brings me back to my center when I'm losing my, when I'm losing my sense of hope. Because the world we are living in now is a very, you know, death by a thousand cuts.

When I get to cut 999, God helps me start back at cut number one. So. I think that's, that's helped. 

[00:26:07] Ellington Brown: Well, I'm, I'm sure that helped. You mentioned earlier about being, uh, one of Canada's top 100 black women to watch. What does that mean to you? 

[00:26:24] Chenai Kadungure: Well, I always joke and tell people when I was a child, people would've thought I'll be, I'll end up on a different watch list.

So I'm gonna say is. I think it is. I have many teachers and people who would've just thought, oh, this girl is just a, you know, like, she's just like, she's naughty, she's disruptive, she's, it's always the story of the A DHD child, right? So I think, so what it meant to me to have that accolade is to say. You know, allow people to be themselves because in the same way, to love a person is to fully see them and fully accept them for all they are.

I do think our largest power is in, in accepting ourselves as well. And so for me, it was only after getting a higher rate of self-acceptance that I started seeing that I was able to lead more in my life. So, um. The accolade itself is just almost like a mirror of that, of saying, look, the out external world is seeing the value in yourself that you miss.

You weren't seeing in yourself. 

[00:27:29] Rita Burke: You said something beautiful. You've been saying lots of beautiful things, but I'll tell you which one. Right now, it's tackling itself on my soul. The importance of liking yourself and being yourself. That's absolutely beautiful. That's where life begins. Last evening, I was at a session where we were talking about children's books.

One of the books that someone read was, I like My Body or My Body's Beautiful. Something like that. All shapes, all forms, all shades of. I thought that was so affirming that we need to really buy into liking, loving, embracing her bodies regardless of what her bodies look like. So there was no body shaming there.

So tell us about a time when you declared enough when you had to say enough. It's personal, whether it's professional career wise, and you had to say that 

[00:28:33] Chenai Kadungure: I think everyone goes through a season where they work in a job that that's sort of like a toxic environment. And so I think for that, definitely, uh, there's a point where I had to just look at, you know, what was happening, happening within my body and say.

This is now costing me my health, and that was my, my moment of enough. Um, we are not, we are not raised to stand up for ourselves. I would say. I, I don't think there are many people who are taught to do that. And so for me it's the same thing. Like it wasn't a natural thing. I didn't. Get to become assertive overnight.

You know, it's something I had to learn because like I said, Shauna culture is still pat very, uh, patriarchal, right? And so we are taught as young girls to be a bit more seen and not heard, you know, that kind of thing. So it's, it's a bit of a mind shift because when you think of communicating as. Being something like in your head, assertive is aggressive, if that makes sense.

I don't know if I'm translating it. 

[00:29:43] Ellington Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:29:44] Chenai Kadungure: So it's hard to find that balance. And so I find most people then just stay away from ever, you know, telling the truth about how they feel about something. Um, so I think when we talk about fight or flight, everyone's been taught more about flight because they're afraid of, of fighting and being on the wrong side of fighting, if that makes sense.

So I'm learning what is the middle, which is a good fight. 

[00:30:08] Ellington Brown: So you are a motivational speaker, keynote, so what do you, you use that platform for? 

[00:30:22] Chenai Kadungure: I, I would say the core of it is to awaken the self-actualization in my audience. Um, because I, like I say, I had the. Fortune of having people in my life who believed in me early on in life.

I do think other people aren't as lucky and they only get to meet that reality of you know, who they are and acceptance and who they are later on in life. And so anytime I'm speaking somewhere, I want at least, you know. Someone to feel like they've been freed in some way. So if I, if I had to center all of it, right, we, we've gone full circle on liberation for me, free something in that person, in the audience.

Um, and every day there's something we need to be freed from. And so, um, I have a spirit, spirit of Barnabas myself. I've been told I'm an encourager. And so I think that talk must encourage someone. 

[00:31:16] Rita Burke: If it's even liberating, freeing one person. Well, our conversation today is certainly, is certainly freeing me and liberating me, so I thank you for that.

And when you talk about self-actualization, it's so critical, but it's a heavy load to carry to think that you are helping you with self-actualization. But thank you so much for that. We're talking today on SpeakUP! International with a very, very. Amazing woman. I would say, should I? And on SpeakUP! International we seek to inform, educate, and inspire.

There's no question that that's happening through you telling your story. So talk to us a little bit about the best advice you would say you've ever been given.

[00:32:13] Chenai Kadungure: I have an aunt who, who always said, and I repeat this all the time, never self reject. Apply for the thing, apply to the thing, never say no to yourself. Let them say no to you. And so I think that. Has lots of messages, uh, being okay even with failing, right? I think we are, um, we are afraid to failing, yet every single brilliant person I know on the planet had to fail several times to get to that brilliance.

Um, so if we see failure as a part of attaining brilliance, I think that kind, that again, frees you, it frees you from overthinking things. Um, and we've already seen that, right? They say, uh, a woman will think she has to have at least. 80% of what's on the list for, you know, applying for a thing. Um, but for a lot more confident male counterparts, they said as long as they have four out of 10, they're willing to apply.

So I think we need to have some of that just be a bit audacious, you know? So that, I think is, is good advice. Never self reject.

[00:33:19] Ellington Brown: Wow! That is, excellent advice, and I'm gonna ask for a little more advice from you. Well, what advice would you give to young women specifically, African Black women moving into leadership or want to go into leadership, what would be something you would be able to tell them that would lift them, uh, or I guess support them so that they can go ahead and become the leaders that they dream of?

[00:33:59] Chenai Kadungure: I think that they have nothing to prove. I think a lot of the burnout that comes in being a, what we call lonely only is feeling like you have to prove something to the people you're working with because, you know, they might already look down on your race and things like that. Um, I had the pleasure of, you know, watching Boer St. John at be future recently speaking about her own experience and she could never have been the force that she is now. Um. If she got hung up on being a lonely only, she actually chose to make it, uh, almost like a, a gift to say, you know, I am so unique and they, they haven't seen this kind of thing before, so I'm going to be pining and creating something new.

She likened code switching to wearing an uncomfortable shoe. You know, it's very hard to do anything else when you are in pain and so. Find your comfort. Like take those darn shoes off and do the, like, remove whatever could cause that extra pain and make it hard for you to do what you're meant to be doing.

Um, and so I do think that kind of bravery that comes with saying, I have nothing to prove. I'm just, I'm creating something. I have nothing to prove. I'm enjoying the work. I have nothing to prove I am enough. You know, those kinds of ideas. I think young black women need those. And I'll say the second is they need to also be able to not read the room, the physical room, but I would say read the room in terms of what's happening globally. You know, it's, it's my think, think global act local. They're a lot, uh, we are in the middle of a lot of changes. We would do a disservice to our young women if we gave them the same advice we gave them 20 years ago.

Um, we're in a different time and so I'd say get yourself a mentor. Someone who sees what's coming. Someone who's a watcher who can tell you where to be because there's someone out there who got a, who got a coding career because we were told coding was gonna be the thing. And now AI has made coding obsolete.

So I, I think it's things like that. Let's be aware of what's happened.

[00:36:15] Rita Burke: So Chenai what, or when was the last time you did something new? Maybe that's an obsolete, obsolete question. 'cause you are always doing stuff. When was the last time you did something here? 

[00:36:30] Chenai Kadungure: Ooh. I will say trying, working on my book is very new because I've never had a book so very new and it has all of the darkened uglies that come with trying to do something for the first time.

So I. Thinking of myself when I'm writing my book and thinking of like, oh, am I, am I an author? Am I all those different imposter syndrome moments? I would say I've been going through with this book that I'd say has probably been ready for months, but I'm just like, I keep having that thing of needing to get over myself, and so the book will be launching very soon, paid on purpose.

[00:37:16] Ellington Brown: I know exactly what you're going through, all I can say is you're not alone. Looking ahead, what do you see yourself doing, say five years from now?

[00:37:34] Chenai Kadungure: So, you know, it's an interesting question because everyone will map out something based on their current trajectory, but because I feel I walk in some kind of divine alignment, um, I surprise myself every time. So what I mentally think I'll be doing in five years, God might make me do in a year. So I will say I, I will definitely be speaking more.

I will be. Advocating more. I work in a lot of advocacy work that I think is gonna build up to something meaningful. Um, and I think more of my identity, not just as a global citizen, but global leader, is going to have been at such an enhanced level that it will not just be that I am, my core work is in Canada.

Uh, it'll, there's a global element to what I'll be doing in the next five years for sure. And just to say. Within the next five years, they're reporting traditional employment as we know it might be obsolete, and they're already saying that with automation that's coming as well, there might be a 25% unemployment rate.

I will definitely be on the other side of trying to change that trajectory for everyone else for sure. 

[00:38:48] Rita Burke: I can't wait to read that book to hear more about that. But Elton asked you a question to do with young people and speaking with them. What about leadership? And I'm sure you are fully aware that as a leader you need to be able to present to make presentations.

So how did you learn to be such an effective. Eloquent, comfortable, confident, presenter. Talk to us about that.

[00:39:25] Chenai Kadungure: The funny thing about executive presence, people think it has to do with externals, like how you dress, how you, um, do your hair, all these different things, or even hand actions. Um, yes, that's a part of it. You know, people talk about things like the power pose and, and focusing on on good things so that you feel good about what you're talking about.

Um, but. The largest percentage of executive prisons is internals. It's what you feel inside. And so I think it goes back to what we said. If you think you have something important to say that the thought that you have is valid, your internal confidence either in yourself or in the thing you're talking about is what exudes.

And so for me, that's what it is. It's conviction. Internally, you can't fake conviction. So without fail it, it resonates because it's true and it's real. And I think authenticity is powerful. And so my actualized self is my most authentic self. And so any talk where I get to be me, that's I'm gonna be confident and enjoy it.

[00:40:34] Ellington Brown: So I wanna thank you so much for meeting with us and the conversation was absolutely, uh, wonderful. And we got to talk about to you and we got to know a little bit about your personal journey and your background. Your career and leadership also as an executive director of , many, um, companies, organizations, and finding out what that common thread between all of them happens to be, board and advisory role.

That was interesting. I think you brought in the Rotary Club, as an example. So I thought that was. Excellent and congratulations by the way, being the, selected as one of 100, uh, black women, uh, which is , highly, respected award. Oh yeah. And we did get a chance to talk to you about some, something about your future, even though you're, , you're, you were basically leaving it in the hands of God, and that's okay too.

I can't think of a better place, better, better person for that, say. So we want you to come back. Uh, Rita's already kind of said so because she wants to find out about that book that you've written, and once it's released, we'd love to have another conversation with you about that book.

Rita, do you have anything you wanna add to that?

[00:42:12] Rita Burke: Just wanna say that this conversation.

[00:42:19] Ellington Brown: Thank you so much for, joining us as I said earlier, and please come back and see us. And as soon as your podcast is ready, you'll receive an email from us. And once you get the link, you can do, whatever you want with the link. Uh, that's gonna help. Get the word out, especially specifically your truth.

So thank you so much! 

[00:42:49] Chenai Kadungure: Thank you. Uh, there were, there was so much opposition, whether it was technology, Rita, I don't even know what those sounds are. Now I'm like, 

[00:42:59] Rita Burke: I'm trying to figure out, I think my neighbor's alarm is going on. Opposition. Indeed. Yes. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? God has a purpose. 

[00:43:10] Chenai Kadungure: Yes! 

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