[00:00:10] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! Today we have our guest and her name is 'Tine Zekis. She is a fantastic author! The title of her book is Overcoming Imposter Syndrome at Work. She's going to read a snippet from her book to get us excited and to know more about her and her writings.

The floor is yours, Ms. Zekis! 

[00:00:46] 'Tine Zekis: Have you ever worked tirelessly on a project because it never seemed good enough? Are you worried that people will somehow discover that you're not as smart or talented as you appear to be? Do you feel uncomfortable accepting compliments or praise? Well here's the good news!

You are not alone. These experiences all fall under the umbrella of what's commonly known as imposter syndrome. The feeling that nothing you do will be quite good enough, or the belief that all of your successes are the result of dumb luck, but your failures are all you. Left unchecked imposter syndrome can prevent us from living up to our full potential.

Self-doubt can inhibit us from pursuing opportunities to further our careers. Perfectionism can slow us down or wear us out to the point of burnout. And anytime we fall short of our goals, we can use that as evidence of our worthlessness perpetuating the vicious cycle. But before we dig into how to break that cycle, I wanna be clear.

Imposter syndrome is not your failing. The widespread experience of imposter syndrome, especially amongst women of color, is the direct and intentional result of structural, institutional and cultural systems. Those barriers make up what I call imposter systems, the structures that induce the syndrome. We need to tear those systems down from the top down and from the inside out, but that will take time and effort from lots of people who are not you.

And in the meantime, you need to live your life. So this book is not about fixing you. You are not the problem. But while the problem continues to exist, this book is about the strategies that we as individual, black women, and as a community can use to disrupt the impact that imposter systems have on our own lives and outcomes.

Let's dig in.

[00:02:47] Rita Burke: More, more, more! That was absolutely delightful! On SpeakUP! International. We have conversations with people from all over the world and today, much like one day last week, we spoke to someone in Chicago. Today we're speaking with 'Tine Zekis. Who was an educator. She's turned or segued into being a software engineer and international speaker 'Tine says in her bio that she's also the sole breadwinner for her family of four.

She says that her story is not a success story, but instead it's a strategy story. And so there's so much more I can say about our guest today. I'm SpeakUP! International, but as we say, we allow our guests to tell their own stories and so with that in mind, I introduce again, 'Tine Zekis. Welcome to SpeakUP! International!

[00:04:01] 'Tine Zekis: Thank you so much for having me! 

[00:04:04] Ellington Brown: Our pleasure! Earlier we spent like over like a half an hour just talking, so I thought maybe you would show up because you would think we've already used up that time, so you're off to, to do something else.

[00:04:18] 'Tine Zekis: No, it was a pleasure! 

[00:04:20] Ellington Brown: So can you take me back to a moment when you realized something has to change in your teaching career? 

[00:04:32] 'Tine Zekis: Oh, absolutely. 

[00:04:33] Ellington Brown: You were a math teacher? 

Yes, I was a high school math teacher. Um, and I, I taught in many forms for many years, but I was a full-time teacher with my own classroom for six school days.

And I usually have to repeat that 'cause people don't believe it. That was six school days. Um, in the first week of school, I was so stressed. I was having panic attacks. I lost seven pounds in five days. Um, you know, the, the classroom management piece was a challenge. Um, I can. Explain a math concept in 10 different ways, but I only know one way to say, you know, stop talking when other people are talking.

And um, you know, I took the long weekend to regroup and I, you know, rearranged the seats in my room for optimal, uh, classroom management. And I got to school and I had a panic attack and threw up twice before first period. And that was it. That was it. We were done. So that was when I knew something had to change.

Um, also in general with teaching overworked, underpaid, um, you know, that was, that was not going to be a sustainable path for me, and so I. I, I left without having a plan, which was scary. Um, but I, while I was trying to figure out the next steps, I started subbing for other teachers and one of them was teaching math alongside AP computer Science.

And I was staying a chapter ahead of the kids trying to figure out this coding thing, and I realized I actually liked it. Um, I think. What I found so surprising was that all 30 kids could have a different answer to the same problem and be right. You know, in math it's like, okay, did everyone get 72? And I didn't realize there was actually creativity in programming.

So I went to a bootcamp, I became a software developer. Um, and. Fought through my own imposter syndrome as a career changer, moving from a very female dominated industry, very social justice oriented to a white male dominated industry where my colleagues had been building computers since high school and I had only started to learn code when I was almost 30.

So, um, yeah, that was, that's sort of the, the origin story. And then from there. I negotiated salaries, changed jobs several times. I was able to double my teaching salary in two years, and I more than tripled my teaching salary in less than five years. And that, yeah, 

[00:07:20] Rita Burke: just a little bit about making your way, I wanna say gingerly, but I don't know, into that male.

Dominated bastion. Mm-hmm. Career of software engineering. Talk to us a little bit more about that. 

[00:07:39] 'Tine Zekis: Oh yeah. So it was a, a very jarring change. Um, a friend of mine, another woman engineer, framed it perfectly. She asked, um, her boss at the time, you know, have you ever taken your wife to a baby shower? And dropped her off and thought, I'm not going in there.

And she said, well, that's what it's like to come to work every day. Right. That feeling of not belonging, that there's some, you know, cultural aspect that you're missing, um, and really feeling invisible in that space. So yeah, that was a big challenge for me. And, um, the thing I tried to focus on was what I bring that no one else does.

Right? So in my interview that landed my first role, um, I told the hiring manager, I'm a developer who can speak humans. You know, I can break down a concept for people who are not from a technical background in a way that maybe your guys who've been building computers since high school can't do.

[00:08:40] Ellington Brown: So what inspired your pivot from high school math? Was it the. Teachers? Or was it the stress that it, from what you told me? Mm-hmm. I don't know if it was just the kids themselves, which you said you had a problem communicating with. You could the math, no problem. Telling the kids to sit down and shut up was a, was another, another story.

So is that why you decided to leave? I guess you had two. Two strikes. You know the pressure and then. The students. 

[00:09:21] 'Tine Zekis: Um, I mean I think the third one was the pay, right? You know, for me, the amount of work that teaching is, um, you know, I was also a student teacher. I was a tutor. I've done teaching in many ways and there's always more work to do.

There's always the grading and the planning, and it is much more than a typical nine to five job. And yet the pay is, um, you know, that's, that's a, a whole episode, a whole other story is, is how we underpay our educators. And I had the student debt from my master's in education, so I was in student debt, I had credit card debt.

I wasn't able to afford my own apartment. Um, on top of having this incredibly stressful job that was, um, frankly bad for my physical wellbeing. So those were the, that was the breaking point. 

[00:10:16] Rita Burke: It is such a worthy, such an important. Career job, important for the person who's doing it, important for the people who are receiving, and yet it can be so packed with stress.

Mm-hmm. And should we say to some degree, in some ways, unrewarded? 

[00:10:41] 'Tine Zekis: Yeah. 

[00:10:42] Rita Burke: Would Let me move on to a statement that you made in your bio that I'm really intrigued with. Is that yours is not a success story, but instead it's a strategy story. I wanna hear more about that strategy, please. 

[00:11:00] 'Tine Zekis: Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, when making a pivot in your career, um, there are all kinds of ways to go about it.

And I think especially for black women, we usually start with, okay, I gotta go get another degree. Or at least some kind of certification, right? We are the most educated. The most qualified, which means we have the most student debt, and then, and still in many cases, we are amongst the least paid. And so.

One of the things, you know, I had, I had achieved this master's degree and when I was making this pivot, I thought, I cannot go get another degree. Like that is not, that can't be the plan, right? What is something that I can do with the skills I currently have and how can I uplevel the skills that I need in an affordable way?

To be able to move into something that's going to be more lucrative. And so for me, that was a bootcamp. But um, these days I feel like even just YouTube University, right? There are lots of ways to get the skills that we need at low cost. And it's not about I need to earn this degree or I need to prove to someone by getting this really expensive piece of paper.

That I'm qualified. And so that I think was the main strategy that helped me make that pivot and that I tried to, to work with others to do as well.

[00:12:27] Ellington Brown: I'd like to know something about this pivot thing. I'm kind of stuck on this. What advice do you give to black women who are considering this move, this pivot? I know you talked a little bit about that, but I'd love to hear a little bit more mm-hmm. About that. Because black women, I don't think really understand that the word pivot, and if you, if you think about it, the tip is round so it can go any way.

You want, all you have to do is determine the mm-hmm. Angle that you wish to pivot. So how do you tell these women, black women, you're not stuck. 

[00:13:20] 'Tine Zekis: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a really good question. 'cause I think one of the things that's most challenging when you're considering a pivot is that. You could go in any direction.

And so there are so many options that it can be overwhelming. And what if I pick the wrong thing? And so a lot of us, especially anyone who has a lot of those transferable skills, who's really talented, there's so many different things you could do. And so one of the biggest things I try to advise people is to remember that your next decision doesn't have to be the final decision.

I've had several pivots in my career. And so you can sort of lessen the pressure of this decision to be the right one because you need to just go in a direction and from that you're going to get all sorts of additional information and you're just opening more doors along the way and you can pivot again.

And the more you do it, the better you become at it. So that's the, the biggest thing I try to do is sort of lessen the, pressure to make the right next decision and just make a next decision. 

[00:14:30] Rita Burke: I, I, I, I like that approach. I like that philosophy. It's very meaningful. The next decision doesn't have to be your final decision.

Mm-hmm. And, and really until you're six feet under. Nothing has to be your final decision. 

[00:14:49] 'Tine Zekis: Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:14:51] Rita Burke: And so I need to say to you or to ask you, who or what do you believe is responsible for the person you are today? 

[00:15:02] 'Tine Zekis: Oh, that's a great question. Who or what is responsible for the person you are today?

It's so many things. I mean, ultimately it's you. Ultimately you are responsible for the person you are today. Many things can impact that. Right. Our experiences impact us, our upbringing, our social circles, our experiences in the world, but the way that we respond to the things that happen to us are what define us, and you can always change.

Right. So we can always be on a path of self-improvement, and I, I'm cautious with that because I work with so many people with imposter syndrome. And so I don't want to say, you know, you're always imperfect and you're always, um, less than or less than worthy. You are worthy how, however you are right now, and there are things you can do to continuously improve.

[00:16:01] Ellington Brown: You've helped many people raise the size of their income 

[00:16:07] Rita Burke: mm-hmm. 

[00:16:08] Ellington Brown: Through negotiation, there has to be some form of mindset that has to, change mm-hmm. In order for them to see themselves as you put it as worthy.

[00:16:24] 'Tine Zekis: Absolutely! 

[00:16:25] Ellington Brown: So how do you get them to not be afraid to change their mindset? 

[00:16:31] 'Tine Zekis: Oh, that's such a great question and you're absolutely right. I've had, um, clients double their income in just one salary negotiation. And yes, part of that is strategy. Part of that is learning how to negotiate and setting your numbers.

But the biggest piece of that is that mindset shift that, you know, so many of us are underpaid and undervalued and we internalize. Those messages that that's what we deserve. And so the the biggest thing I start with, especially for, for those of us who've been taught, you know, you gotta work twice as hard to get half as much.

The fact that you've been working twice as hard all this time means that you are definitely the most qualified person in the room. So a lot of it's about building up that confidence in your achievements and in your abilities, and then saying, wait a minute. Because of all that, I also deserve to be compensated well.

And so it's really about trying to internalize that sense of deserving. And, um, you know, a lot of people use the phrase Know your worth, um, as sort of an empowering thing when talking about negotiations. And I do not use that phrase because to me that is saying that your worth as a human has some monetary value.

Right, know your worth. Oh, your worth is 150,000. No, there's no amount of money that could own where someone could own you. No one can buy you for an amount of money. So instead of knowing your worth, I encourage people to know your worthy and that no number's too high. But now it's okay. I'm selling my services for X amount, which is really different than tying our worth as a person to how much money we bring in.

[00:18:21] Rita Burke: I'm selling my services. Do you ever get people to do affirmations? Because what I'm hearing is mindset has to change. In order for people to change their trajectory, for it to go in the right direction. So do you encourage affirmations and what are some of them that you use? 

[00:18:47] 'Tine Zekis: Absolutely. Um, in fact, my, my book comes with, there's a, I think a QR code in there for, uh, some imposter syndrome affirmations.

Um, and yeah, that's definitely a huge piece because we need to train our brains to, um, you know, kind of. Create those pathways that reinforce those positive things. Um, so definitely one that I use is, is about this worthiness, right? I am worthy of love, I am worthy of endless amounts of income and abundance, right?

Just reminders. I am worthy of being treated well in my relationships and in my job. So I think a lot of those are around that sense of worthiness. Um, and then there are others, especially for imposter syndrome. I am capable, I have earned my achievements, I have earned my accolades through my effort.

Right? And even if something seems like it comes to you effortlessly, that's because you've honed that skill over time. And so those are the, the kinds of things that, uh, that I encourage folks to, to affirm in themselves. 

[00:20:10] Ellington Brown: If I been at a job, say for 10 years, and, and I know that I am not, uh, getting the salary that I wish, mm-hmm.

How do I go about asking for more money? 

[00:20:28] 'Tine Zekis: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think the, the best tool we have is market research. You know, there are websites you can go on, um, levels.fyi or glassdoor.com, and you can put in your title, your years of experience, even your location, and it will show you how much people are reporting that they're making in those roles.

And one thing I encourage folks to do is they'll show you kind of a bell curve. And I always say we're not interested in anything past that 50th percentile mark. So we're starting in the middle and moving up, right? Because again, we are not average. We all worked twice as hard to get here. So we're not interested in what someone below average is making, right?

So we wanna start with that market research so that we can say, you know, I've been doing my research and I'm seeing that people are actually making closer to X. Right? And that's not, um. It's not meant to be like a threat, like, and I'll go somewhere else where someone will pay me that, but it's something that you can bring to the table and say, Hey, you know, here are the things that I've contributed.

Here are the results I've delivered. This is the impact of my work, and I'm seeing a market value of this amount, which is higher than what I'm making here. How can we get closer to that? How can we reconcile that? And I always approach those conversations as a collaboration, right? It's not me versus them.

'cause that can be really intimidating. Instead it's how can we work together to get the best result for both of us? And so maybe they can't come up on salary as much as you'd like, but we can get creative and say, okay, well can we talk about more PTO or a stipend for my home office? Or you know, tuition reimbursement, there are different kinds of budgets, right, that that might contribute to your overall compensation.

And so I always try to approach that conversation as sort of a team building exercise. Let's work together on this. And of course, you might find that you're met with a lot of rigidity. And in that case, then you need to decide, is this a place I want to stay? Or do I need to move on to another place that will, um, reward me with more compensation?

[00:22:51] Rita Burke: As you speak, as I listen with you, I'm thinking of a song called Wind Beneath or Behind My Cell, and I think. If I were to capture what I hear you saying, perhaps this is what you do for black women, but I'll come back to that. You're an international speaker. Talk to us about where you've spoken in the world and to whom, to whom have you.

[00:23:25] 'Tine Zekis: Oh, absolutely. Um, a lot of my international speaking has actually been through corporations that will bring me in to talk with their employees specifically about imposter syndrome. And so, um, I have had some, you know, I think since the pandemic we've done a lot more of these virtual conversations and so I've been able to speak with folks in the US, Canada, Europe, Asia, and Africa, um, sort of across the globe, mostly on imposter syndrome in your career and how you can navigate that. Um, most of my speaking that is not with corporations. That's where I. Work in the, you know, how do you get the salary you deserve, kinds of things. I'm, it's less often that a, that a corporation will have me come in and, and talk to their employees about how to negotiate better.

But I, I have done that. Um, but those are usually the opportunities where I'm able to, to really speak to that confidence of, you know, if this place is not going to give me what I deserve, then I need to go find somewhere that will.

[00:24:35] Ellington Brown: Wow! This subject is, um, getting deeper, deeper and deeper, I tell you! Uh, but quite enjoyable. Coaching and kind impact. So what patterns have you noticed among mid-career Black women? Mm-hmm. Who feel. Hmm. Feel, feel overworked and undervalued? 

[00:25:03] 'Tine Zekis: Absolutely. I think the first thing that I notice with, um, a lot of my clients is self-blame.

There's a lot of, oh, I should have negotiated, or, I never did this. I didn't realize I could do that. And I always try to remind them that. All we can do is move forward and do better with the information we have now. Right? So none of our work is about regretting what got us to where we are, but instead it's okay, now that I have more information, now that I'm building my confidence, what are the things I can do to move forward?

So we really wanna work on that growth mindset on, you know, each of the things we've experienced has been a lesson. So that's one thing. Another is that many of them are performing well in their roles, maybe overperforming and getting passed up for promotions. That is a very common theme we see. And so for many of them, occasionally I'll have someone who, who's really working on getting promoted within their organization or getting.

A raise within their organization and we'll work through that process. But for the most part, by the time they're coming to me, they have already realized that their current organization is not going to, um, fulfill what they need. And so a lot of the times we're working on finding something else or building out a business to create other sources of income.

[00:26:45] Rita Burke: We are having this very, I would say, inspiring conversation with 'Tine Zekis who is currently speaking with us from Chicago. And as you know on SpeakUP! International, we seek to educate, inform and inspire. And right now I think that's happening. We're, we're achieving those goals. And so 'Tine, my next question to you is, if I were to put 50 women, dare I say black women in the room and invite you as the keynote speaker, what three gems would you want to leave with them?

[00:27:31] 'Tine Zekis: Hmm. Well, I do like to talk about the three secrets to earning the salary you deserve. So those will be my three gems. The first is believe it, and that's that mindset piece. Believing that you are worthy as you are right now, and that no number is too high. The second secret is show it. So now that you know how great you are, you wanna make sure that the decision makers in your organization know whether that's your interviewers, the hiring manager.

Or if you're already in the organization, your manager, the higher ups who make the decisions about promotions and raises, et cetera. So how are you showing your accomplishments and talking about the impact of your work? Are you doing visible work, like presenting demos for other teams, et cetera? And so now that you know it, now you've shown other folks.

The third secret is get it. And that is now the negotiation piece. The answer is always no if you don't ask. And so that third piece is to now make the ask. Ask for that amount that you've, you know, you've done your research, you've talked through, these are my accomplishments, these are the things I've brought, and this is what I think I should be paid.

[00:28:55] Ellington Brown: Well, with these three gyms, I think we should all be able to come up with a, at at least six figure salaries. Absolutely. At least that's what I feel like I'm worth. I don't know about anyone else, 

[00:29:10] 'Tine Zekis: at least 

[00:29:11] Ellington Brown: at, at, hey, at least I don't know about you, but I, you know, I have to, I, I need money to. By the things that I love and one of them happens to be fried chicken.

I really can can get into that. I also can get into steaks. So, you know, we were talking earlier about that mindset. Mm-hmm. So my mindset is what, what's set by my dad? He said, if you don't work, you don't eat. And now you're saying, but we had to be strategic about the working part, not to keep up with other people that are in, that are in the room.

[00:29:50] Rita Burke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:52] Ellington Brown: I wanna know, what does purpose driven entrepreneurship mean to you? 

[00:30:02] 'Tine Zekis: Mm Oh, I love that so. For me, um, you know, obviously my business is very purpose driven. Um, I, I actually started my business just trying to, um, get paid for my speaking roles. And so I started out trying to do a speaking business and it really wasn't feeling aligned.

I was kind of, you know, sending cold emails to organizations and, and I just wasn't feeling it. And I, and I spoke with a coach and she said, well, what really lights you up? And I said, getting black women paid. And now that is my business, getting black women paid. And so for me, um, the work is purpose driven.

I'm trying to help black women close the pay gap, close the wealth gap, and then build generational wealth. And so for my clients who are starting businesses, I encourage them to really think about their values, think about the legacy that they want to leave, because when they are acting in purpose and in alignment with their values that will drive their business even further.

So I always encourage, um, folks to, to think about impact along with income.

[00:31:15] Rita Burke: I like that. Think of impact along with income. Mm-hmm. Based on most of your responses to our questions. It sounds to me as if there is joy for you in what you do. Talk to us. Tell us what are some of the things that help to put a smile, a smile in your voice.

I don't wanna say on your face, but a smile in your voice. 

[00:31:48] 'Tine Zekis: Absolutely. Um. Yes, there is so much joy in what I do. I think the first thing that really makes me smile is when someone feels seen by, you know what I am giving. So, you know, when someone comes up to me after a talk on imposter syndrome and they say, oh my goodness, I didn't even know there was a word for that feeling that I had and, and now I don't feel so alone.

You know that. Put such a big smile on my face and in my voice. Um, and then the biggest thing is the success stories. You know, um, my, my very first, I, I don't even wanna say client mentee at the time, it was before the business started. Um, she was working as a site reliability engineer. Um, she had gone from an internship and then stayed on for the role, and she knew that the offer was under market, but it was the beginning of the pandemic.

She really wasn't sure she could push back. And so she came to me. And we were talking about how to negotiate. She ended up getting an offer that was $66,000 more than what she was making. And normally she would say, yes, please, and thank you, and start celebrating. But after our work together, she knew she wasn't gonna leave money on the table.

So she negotiated and landed another 20 K in salary and bonuses. So she more than doubled her income in this one move. And you know, a year later she was, um, fixing up a property to create safe and affordable housing on the south side of Chicago. And you know, one of the things I always think about is when black women win, everyone wins!

You know, we are so giving and we show up for our communities. And so for me, it's, every time I think about her, I get this big smile because I know that what she took from me, she is paying forward. And, and that is just, um, there's, there's nothing better.

[00:33:56] Ellington Brown: I just want to thank you so much, uh, 'Tine for, uh, spending time. Uh, with us today, uh, you and I talking earlier, uh, this week, which was, I thought was really, really great. And today we, we covered, things that made me go, Hmm, you know, you know the power of the pivot. Mm.

And how it's very important to understand how that actually works. Because if you don't, then you can't do it. So you have to be able to understand what that power is and how to use that power, uh, uh, to your advantage. Also, we talked about the power of a negotiation. 

[00:34:42] Rita Burke: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:43] Ellington Brown: Or a not. And you being a career coach to tell people, yes you can!

[00:34:48] 'Tine Zekis: Absolutely! 

[00:34:48] Ellington Brown: Can see you now. Shaking the pompom, selling them. Yeah. Come on. You know, get that money. And that's, and you know that's okay with me. I, mm-hmm. I say, you know, women, all of you get paid what you are worth. Get, get that money. And you as a coach, uh, I, I'm sure these individuals are seeing positive results and they're feeling really good about themselves because of the transformational choice that they made.

[00:35:20] 'Tine Zekis: Absolutely! 

[00:35:21] Ellington Brown: So money freedom, strategy, they got it all and it was because of you, uh, working with them. So thank you so much for, uh, today and when you write that next book, please let us know because we want you to come back and give us another excerpt so that we can tantalize our audience and get them to, uh, check out your publications. Rita is there something that you'd like to add to that? 

[00:35:53] Rita Burke: Yes. I would just like to thank 'Tine for reminding us of the fact that when black women win. Everyone wins. That is so affirming. That is so true. That is so profound. And it's something we need to remind ourselves of every mm-hmm. So often. So thank you.

Thank you for very much for reminding us of that. 

[00:36:21] 'Tine Zekis: Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me, and I'm, I'm glad you brought up that piece because a lot of the women I talk to feel guilty or selfish for trying to ask for more. And so I do like to remind them when black women win, everybody wins. Uh, it's so important! 

[00:36:42] Ellington Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International! If you wish to contact our guest, Ms. 'Tine Zekis, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Ms. Zekis at https://tinezekis.com/ Ms. Zekis has other social media accounts you can use to connect to her that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms. Your voice has the power to inspire, to influence and ignite change. We'd love to hear your story! We invite you to connect to us by sending your message that includes your name, your company or organization name, the valuable service you offer to your community and your email address to info@speakuppodcast.ca. To connect to our podcast, use Spotify or your favorite podcast platform and search for SpeakUP! International. You can also find our podcast using our web address, www.speakuppodcast.ca.

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