[00:00:00] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

[00:00:14] Rita Burke: As on SpeakUP! International, we traverse the world to find people we consider to be community builders. Today we are in Arizona with Dr. Asani Brogan, who is a spiritualist, a life coach, she's an author and she's a diviner. She is the principal coach and CEO of Asani four four. She also creates and publishes spiritual coaching tools.

Dr. Brogan is a devote the devotee of Haitian, of Buddhist spiritual systems. And her experience has been instrumental in the development of her knowledge and understanding of spirituality. Now, on SpeakUP! International, we believe very strongly that it's best if our guests tell their own stories. And so I will stop there and welcome Dr. Brogan to SpeakUP! International!

[00:01:21] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Thank you. Thank you! I'm very excited to be here today!

[00:01:26] Ellington Brown: So am I! And I think I can safely speak for Rita. Both of us are glad to be here!

Good doctor. Can you tell me how you started this organization? What's the background and your vision? 

[00:01:46] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Okay. You're referring to Asanee 44, correct? 

[00:01:50] Ellington Brown: Yes. Asanee. Yes. 

[00:01:51] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Okay. So Asanee 44 actually born out of my desire to educate the diaspora about finances, career business dynamics. So it was completely different than what you see now.

I began this journey because that's what. I felt like I was shown to do at that particular time, because we do need so much education in this area. However, after some time, my spiritual team, my ancestors started to say to me, you really need to focus on spirituality. And I was really apprehensive. About doing it, especially with being a practitioner of Haitian voodoo and IFA, because those are the main two pillars of the organization of Asanee 44, because those are not well accepted right in society.

And so I was practicing and I was perfectly fine with what I was, I am doing what I do. As far as my own personal practice, but I wasn't really ready to showcase that to the world. But my ancestors kept getting on me and saying, it's really time to integrate that aspect of it. And once I started to flow down that path, everything just fit in place.

And right now, that's where we are. We have a heavy emphasis on spirituality. I still absolutely talk about finances and business because that is important still to the African diaspora, but I integrated with the spiritual components and that's the gist of my message is the spirituality. 

[00:03:26] Rita Burke: I particularly like what you said in terms of financial education being critical and important to our people.

You also mentioned that the ancestors are your spiritual team. Talk to us a little bit about that. And how do they communicate with you? 

[00:03:47] Dr. Asanee Brogan: My ancestors are part of a very vast spiritual team. And so they communicate with me in so many different ways. Primarily just intuitively, I get a lot of downloads and I just know things and I'm shown things through individuals, through things that I am working with.

And that's what ancestral communication, spiritual communication is all about. I think a lot of times people assume that it's you're going to have all of these, different experiences where you're just sitting with spirits all day long. Absolutely. There are people who see apparitions and I'm by no means denying that aspect of it.

But that's not my personal experience. I communicate with spirits. Pretty much the same way, I'm communicating with you is through thoughts, is through words. Of course, when it comes to prayer and things like that, I vocalize my prayers. Sometimes I don't, but that's a common method for me. How do I hear from them is through the direction that they show me. Obviously divination is a major part of this as well because I am a devotee of two African traditional systems. So that is something that I do quite frequently. I also, as a diviner, I'm actually a tarot reader, okay. I do not do IFA divination because some people get that though we offer IFA divination through a Asanee 44 through a Nigerian base hour.

[00:05:21] Ellington Brown: Wow! It complicated already. But I'm sure that through our conversation, a lot of this we're going to unpack. How do you bring spiritual practices, both modern and ancestral, together? 

[00:05:43] Dr. Asanee Brogan: I would probably say are you saying bringing both spiritual, like modern day spiritual practices with traditional spirituality?

[00:05:52] Ellington Brown: Yes. 

[00:05:52] Dr. Asanee Brogan: I really don't. So like modern day spirituality, everything I do is based off of tradition. Do I integrate tradition into conventional things that we do today? Absolutely. So in your day to day life, you're integrating what you know, the ancestral wisdom and knowledge and you're taking it into what we do in today's time in modern life.

So I don't, obviously stay back, in, in ancient days, as far as the things that we were doing, because we're using technology. We're using things that our ancestors weren't privy to. That being said, I personally don't work with. Modern day spiritual systems as it were. So I don't deal with Christianity though.

Some people consider that to be tradition is not in comparison to when you're going back to the true ancient ways of our ancestors. 

[00:06:52] Ellington Brown: I'm thinking, okay, depending on how you are, going to support someone or not would determine whether or not you say, okay, so I can help you using this modern technique as opposed to maybe, this modern technique is not going to be as supportive enough.

So I'm going to reach back. To our ancestors and grab what I need in order to help you or that maybe it has to be maybe a little traditional, a little modern and you put them together and then voila you're able to help someone. 

[00:07:34] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Yes, all of our knowledge and wisdom is definitely based off of the ancestral legacy, the heritage.

So if you go and you get an IFA reading or Voodoo reading, you're communicating with your ancestral spirits. You're communicating with deities from African traditions. Obviously they understand that we live in a modern world, so they're not going to Give you a remedy or a solution to your problem that is antiquated or outdated for your needs, right?

So they're going to say you need to do this, and that. But especially in IFA, it is always going to come with a sacrifice or a sacrifice. It would always come with a sacrifice and an offering. And so that is the traditional way. Once an individual goes in and does that sacrifice are often what we call Àbọrú Àbọyè in the IFA tradition that balances them out.

It harmonizes them and so through that process, that individual starts to get the information that they need or situations start to open up for them so that they can then have the solution to their problem. And so the answers are obviously going to work with them within a modern context. But as far as me personally integrating modern day spiritual practices into what I do. That's not going to be, that's not common for me.

[00:09:04] Rita Burke: Particularly curious if you could help me understand and perhaps our listeners How does African spirituality differ from other kinds of spirituality? 

[00:09:17] Dr. Asanee Brogan: It really doesn't too much, right? It's an interesting question. All traditions, all religions, even so the Abrahamic traditions are based on the notion of dealing with sacrifices, communicating with spiritual forces.

Okay. Obviously, we have that chasm with the new and the Old Testament when it comes to biblical teachers, but if you go back into the Old Testament, pretty much everything that we do in African traditions is right there in the Old Testament, the divination, the Levitical priesthood. They gave sacrifices and offerings.

There's a whole book dedicated to, what offerings, what sacrifices are given when a person is dealing with X, Y, Z, right? Islam, they still do sacrifices and offerings. Judaism, etc. So pretty much every spiritual system that we deal with today is based off of African traditions. And of course, definitely don't let me leave out the indigenous or native practices that people still do around the world and, Asia and other parts of the world that are not considered to be African traditions, though, they truly are right.

They do the same thing in modern day Christianity. There's a lot of talk and speech, of course, against doing the sacrifices and the offerings and communicating with multiple spiritual forces outside of Jesus, but Jesus serves as an intermediary, just like African deities. The major difference there is that we honor multiple deities or spiritual forces, whatever you want to call them.

We do not consider them to be the most high or the supreme creator or being, if you will, there is a separate creative being who made these spiritual forces and these spiritual forces serve as intermediaries for us in a very similar way. That Jesus serves as their force for Christians, Islam is a little bit different in that regard, because there is no direct intermediary in the same way.

Most people believe in going directly to Allah, though. They definitely honor Mohammed. I'm not very familiar with that tradition. As far as all of the tenant goes, I know a little bit about it because I did live in the Middle East for a while. Anybody who is listening who is a Muslim, definitely chime in and explain, more of that dynamic.

But to get back to the gist of your question, honestly, there isn't much difference. We believe in he will pellet, which is good character. We believe in walking in integrity and all of those things. It is not demonic as most people assume it to be. Matter of fact, many of the codes and the things that we go by in from, especially the Holy old do when it comes to IFA and I'm focusing here on one spiritual system, I'm by no means saying that a, though that is all of African traditions, though, foundationally, they are very similar.

They all have a set of codes and principles. African traditions demand that you live a life of balance and harmony, right? So that means that you're not going to do things to destroy yourself, your family, your community, your environment, et cetera. And pretty much any spiritual system that believes in a divine creative force teaches the same thing.

[00:13:01] Ellington Brown: Wow. Okay. So so then in other words, we're talking basic value that all communities have. We don't steal we're not going to kill all the basic values that come across just like in any other advance community. So when you talk about IFA and Haitian voodoo, how does that influence your spiritual coaching? 

[00:13:36] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Heavily?

Those systems are a way of life, right? It's not separate from who you are or what you do. So the principles, the guidelines. Or what I do is always going to be guided by how I coach another person and how I help them come to terms with who they are spiritually, the principles are there, and I'm happy that you asked that question because it's so important for me for individuals to understand that our traditions are about living a good life.

Life. Okay. They are not about you can just come and do whatever you want to do because unfortunately that is the misconception in today's society. People feel like they can come. And especially when it comes to voodoo, because of all the propaganda, a lot of people don't know about IFA in the same way, though it is gaining a whole lot of momentum.

But going back to what I was saying, a lot of people feel like I'm just going to go and do some voodoo. Get some kind of spell word, do such and such, and I'm good, and I can live whatever way that I want to do, I want to live, and that's not voodoo. There are definitely things that you, because the principles are the same regardless, you can take that same energy and that same power and use it for good or bad, okay?

Corruption, I should say. But that is not true voodoo. That is not true african spirituality. So you can't come to the table with the mindset that it's just about going and do some ritual work. And then I can have everything that I desire and I can still live a very morally corrupt life. Life. This is not what this is about.

So it's very important to me that I emphasize that what we are about is authentic African spirituality with what we do at a Asanee 44 and what that looks like is walking in integrity, not being perfect because none of us are. But the goal is to get to a space of balance and that looks different for everyone.

That's another I should go back to that. That is a discrepancy that is taught or consider from like the Abrahamic traditions, especially in Christianity, because there's this set of laws and thou shall not do this, and that. And everybody is, Expected to live a certain way. In the traditions we have taboos.

Yeah, there, there are standard ways, as I said before, anything that corrupts the societal structure is considered taboo holistically for everyone. But other people have their own taboos where they may not supposed to. Eat certain things or do certain things because that can hinder their own progress, growth and development.

So I integrate all of that into my coaching with people understanding that this is not just about doing whatever you want to do and live in whatever kind of life you desire, you get a ritual done and all is good and you're protected. No, you still have to abide by certain spiritual principles and laws.

If you want to live a good life and if you want to fulfill your destiny, because that's ultimately what it is about. 

[00:17:03] Rita Burke: Dr. Brogan, I thank you for shedding light on this whole, what I consider to be so nebulous, voodoo. Thank you for shedding light. But you use the word sacrifice a number of times. I need to understand what that means, please, within the constraints, within the barometrism, what you do as a spiritual leader.

[00:17:33] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Absolutely. And thank you for that too, because I didn't clarify that. So a sacrifice is actually shedding of animal blood. According to tradition, you do not shed human blood. That's not part of IFA or Voodoo non authentic practice. Whereas an offering would be giving, you shed that for a spiritual force.

Let me say that as well. So you're going to appease a spiritual force. You're going to put that blood on their shrine. According to spiritual principles. Okay. It is not something that anybody just go out and you want to get a cat or a dog and go and share some blood and put it someplace. That's not what I'm referring to.

They are spiritual principles. These things are carried out by priest and priestesses who are equipped with the proper knowledge of what to do is not just anybody should go and do that offerings. On the other hand, are going to be non life force materials that you're going to give to a spiritual force.

And if you have a properly consecrated icon, an individual can do that themselves. So offerings can constitutes things like alcohol or food oils, different things like that. And again, this is something that once somebody is properly trained a devotee, they can go ahead and start to work with the icon in their regard.

[00:19:00] Rita Burke: So before Elton comes back, help me understand this. In the Old Testament, they offered sacrifices, didn't they?

[00:19:12] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Absolutely! And even in the New Testament Jesus serves as a human sacrifice. So, yeah.

[00:19:21] Ellington Brown: Oh, I guess I can come in now. All teachers have their way of teaching. It's their style. So what distinguishes your approach to teaching African spirituality as opposed to other facilitators in your field. 

[00:19:44] Dr. Asanee Brogan: That's an interesting question off the top of my head. And I would have to do a whole lot more meditating on this, but off of the top of my head, I would say, because I approach every aspect of life, like no subject is off limits to me, right? So even just, coming to a video or something or anything that I'm presenting. Whatever needs to be discussed is going to be discussed because it is a part of life.

I don't shy away from certain conversations because it's considered to be politically incorrect or it's because, people consider it to be taboo or what have you in Western society. If voodoo, every spiritual system is about every aspect of our life. And if somebody comes to get an IFA reading, there's going to be a no do.

There's something that comes up that talks about specific areas of your life. Even though you may be coming to get the reading for specific reasons, you may have certain questions. Those questions will be answered in the reading, yes, but the odoo. Could come up and talk about so many aspects of your life.

Okay. It could be about your sexual relationships or even so your sexual preferences. So we have those conversations and I'm open to that. And I like to put out information to let people know. If you are dealing with this problem for instance, I have a video on my YouTube channel that talks about people dealing with like porn addiction or serial adultery and things like that.

It could be spiritual, right? You don't have to go through life. Suffering or ashamed of what's going on with you. Just check and see what's going on. It may not be spiritual. It could be something that, you're just engaging in. You need to stop, but it's worth checking out. and if Either way it comes up.

It's about like we are trying to get healed. We're trying to get in balance here. So for me, it's about teaching people that anything that you're going through you don't have to be ashamed of.

[00:22:00] Rita Burke: Every time we have a conversation on SpeakUP! International, I learn something new. And I just heard a term that I never heard before. Serial adultery. That is fascinating! That's a nice word, basket to place that. Thank you for sharing that term with me. I believe you've alluded a little bit already to our ancestral wisdom. Please share some of the tenants of ancestral what is ancestral wisdom. 

[00:22:35] Dr. Asanee Brogan: I would say ancestral wisdom foundationally is about the knowledge. Did our ancestors glean during their time on earth all the different lessons that they learn, and then they come around and they teach it to, to us, right?

So oftentimes that knowledge is shared before the person actually leaves the earth. Ideally that would happen, but they still carry that wisdom. They learned knowledge. That they get even in the astral realm and they have the availability to bring it back to us. So it's not much different than, a grandmother or a grandfather speaking to their grandchildren and telling them, don't go down this path, son or daughter, because I've been there, right?

And I know that experience. Let me teach you better. Let me give you this information, this knowledge, this wisdom, overstanding what you do with it, obviously is up to you. But that's what I mean when I say, that ancestral knowledge and wisdom.

[00:23:47] Ellington Brown: Your ancestors and African spirituality for beginners. Talk to us a little bit about that, please. 

[00:23:57] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Okay, so those are the two books that I wrote your reference, correct? Okay, so Connecting with Your Ancestors. That is a guide for individuals who are brand new, right? And even for people who may have been going through this path for a while and they feel stuck or they feel like they're missing something, that book lays the groundwork for an ancestral veneration practice for them.

It was particularly developed for those of us in the diaspora who do not have those legacy ancestral connections as individuals on the continent. That being said, I get a whole lot of people from the continent who actually engage with their resource, Because unfortunately, we have just as much separation and stigmatization about African traditions on the continent as we do in the diaspora.

 I didn't even realize how important it was that I came to this work until I started to see that, because my initial message was for the diaspora, and then I started to get individuals from. Like on the continent and they're like, you know what, I'm listening to you and you're really helping me out in this, area.

And I was like you right down the continent, you just, go and find somebody and get the information from your tradition. And they started to explain to me it's not that easy. Why? Because it's been stigmatized. It's been ostracized in their communities. Many of them are Christians or Muslims.

So they don't even know where to go. And even if they do know about spiritualists and traditionalists, they are concerned about, corruption. Is this person real? Cause they don't know the tradition the same way many of us don't know about it. So that's what connecting with your ancestors. It's all about helping people get back to that foundation because one of the major tenants of my practices, I always tell people to start the connections with your ancestors.

Most people want to go. Directly to the spiritual forces because they hear, Oh, she can bring me money. Oh, she can bring me love. And so this is what they want. The Ogun is this warrior energy. He's going to fight all of my battles for me, but really the closest forces. To you that you should be really and truly focused on is your Ori, which is your head, your ancestors, because they are part of your Ori.

They're part of your ancestral Ori. We are ancestors, the DNA and your egbay, which is a special group of spirits that stick close to you. All of these forces stay with you throughout your journey. All right. It's not that the other forces don't, but they don't have a vested interest in your life. In the same way that those three forces do I always tell people, so critical in helping you to find the right path, because it is confusing is so confusing to get back to our traditions and our knowledge, because unfortunately, ATR is pretty much like any other state. spiritual system. There's good and there's evil. There's corruption. All right. So don't let anybody tell you any different.

I don't come to the platform to say, everything is good. Everybody's practicing. African spirituality is a good person. That's not true. And so your ancestors are your guiding force. In that. So that's why I advocate all the time. Start with your ancestors. Start venerating them. We use altars in the diaspora because altars are a focal point.

They're not used really in traditions that come from the continent in the same way. Like in IFA, you're going to deal with the, even with masquerade and stuff like that. But for us in the diaspora, it's we need a different measure because it's a completely different dynamic. And voodoo was born out of that.

The Haitian, I'm not referring to the voodoo from the continent, but the Haitian voodoo, the Louisiana voodoo, which is basically. Pretty much just a branch of Haitian Voodoo because it was formed by many of the Haitians who were brought, excuse me, by their French colonizers after they were forced to leave out of Haiti.

We had to do something a little bit different and that's what connecting with your ancestors is about. It's about educating people about what ancestral veneration is. And isn't what to expect, how to discern when your ancestors are communicating with you, things like that. Going to the African spirituality for beginners.

Again, that's a foundational work. So people understand what is African spirituality all about, right? What am I doing? People don't know, and there's so much confusion and misconception about that, and so I sat down and I wrote that book so that people just have that foundational understanding.

At the end of it, there is an appendix that kind of outlines some of them. more popular by no means I could get all of them, but some of the more popular traditions to maybe spark interest in people who don't know what path to choose. Because though I practice IFA and Haitian voodoo, I don't tell people you need to go down this path because there are so many traditions.

And ultimately it's about your bloodline, your lineage, as far as who you what direction you should be going in.

[00:29:36] Rita Burke: I could keep on listening to you talk about something that is very important for us as a people. I've heard little bits here and little bits there, but I can't say that I have any knowledge about voodoo or those kinds of things. I want you to talk to us, please, about the origins of Haitian rule.

[00:30:07] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Obviously it was born on the island of Haiti Hispaniola as it was called previously. And what ultimately happened is that it's an amalgamation. Of different spiritual practices of people groups that are on the island that were on that island so of course the Taínos right that were already there and then the some of the African groups that were brought over they came over, I should say, prior to slavery and also during slavery, and obviously afterwards, so it's a blended tradition.

And because you do have so many different African groups that ended up in that island. You have a mix of different African traditions. So you're going to find spiritual forces. A lot of them definitely coming out of Benin in the IFA tradition, because that's throughout West Africa, right? You're going to find the Yoruba people spread throughout the area.

Most people focus on Nigeria, but it's all of the area. You also have some spiritual forces that come out of The Congo, the Egyptian system, right? So you're going to find a variety of spiritual forces, as they are called in Haitian voodoo. But the way that works, and pretty much in any African tradition, is that there's basically a tutelary spirit that most families work with.

Okay. So their family. Already knows like this is the spirit that really works with our family. Everybody still has their own individual spiritual court for sure. But that's the main spirit that their family works with. It's how all Christians have adopted Jesus as their Lord and savior.

And that was really born from the knowledge of our systems that, each family, each society. Basically honored one primary deity, though, everybody had their own spiritual force to work with now, of course, in because of the dispersion and the challenges that went on, we don't have the system intact in the same way as it is on the continent. So there are replacements that go on. You may not see the icons in the same way. There are some there, but you probably not going to see them as easily. You're going to work mostly with Veve, which are symbols when people start to do ritual work and things like that in Haiti.

You don't see as much sacrificing as we were talking about earlier going on in the Haitian tradition, but it's there, but it's not as common that somebody is going to get a reading and they're told like you need to actually sacrifice an animal. That's pretty special. So if you do, if it does come up in a reading, that means like you're dealing with some heavy stuff.

Some heavy hitting stuff. It, again, this is very diverse. So you go to Haiti, you may see certain spiritual forces in certain regions that are honored and worshiped more so than others, but that's not even much different than what you're going to see in Nigeria and very traditional areas of Nigeria.

Certain areas you'll see specific Orishas that are honored. More so than other Orisha though, you know there is absolutely going to be a connection to all of the Orisha because we understand That all of those natural forces live within us and in our environment so we honor all of them.

[00:33:46] Ellington Brown: So what role does the African Spirit Regenerated Reimagined podcasts play in fostering dialogue about african spirituality? 

[00:34:03] Dr. Asanee Brogan: That is a major role, because that is the gist of the podcast, and so it helps me to get the message out in verbal form, as opposed to text based, and it opens up those conversations for people to come and, Give extra knowledge beyond what I give because my reach, my knowledge is limited just as all of ours is.

And so I love when people can come and add value to the conversation, or it also opens up an avenue for people to ask questions. Again, because I do like to approach this from a very practical, realistic perspective. So it's ask those questions, even if You don't ask it publicly because you might be shy or what have you.

Send me an email. I get that, quite a bit or, on Instagram in particular, DMs and things like that. Yeah.

[00:34:55] Rita Burke: I had that question in mind as well. What happens, what's your podcast like? So Elton beat me to that one. What does empowerment look like? 

[00:35:09] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Empowerment looks like being able to take action and responsibility for your own journey. Not allowing someone else to dictate what you do.

Or who you are based on their concept of what they think you should be. That's so pivotal in people returning to their ancestral legacy. Because we've been told for so long it's only one way. And you must submit to that way. Even our ancestors were forced to submit to that way. Nowadays. People do so willingly because that's what they've been taught since birth.

However, that was forced on our ancestors. And so now we're the generation that's coming back and saying, no, we were going to do what is right for us. And in our heart. And so empowering a person is giving them the tools, the knowledge and wisdom. I think that's the foundation of, I know that's the foundation of is education, right?

Educating them so that they understand. What it is and what it is not, and so that they can walk confidently in this path, knowing that it is something for them, and they can also walk confidently in this path, being able to explain to other people what it's about without getting offended, because people are curious, they have questions, right?

Get them all the time. Now, the disrespect and things like that's another thing. But having the confidence and the ability to communicate what you believe in, what you are about, knowing when to even communicating that, right? Because it's not everybody that needs to and doing so without fear.

Without fear of judgment, without even fear or doubt within yourself, right? Because that's a major thing. That's a huge thing when you are converting to a tradition that has been so ostracized. Not much different than what other people are doing, but it's been ostracized so much. It's not the easiest thing to come to the world front and say, be public facing rather with this wisdom with this knowledge and say, this is what I do. And, If you have a problem with it, basically that's your problem, not mine, and I'm okay to just keep moving forward.

[00:37:40] Ellington Brown: Those beliefs, when we look back in history, that's, sometimes that was enough to put people to death because of them deciding that they're going to embrace these beliefs and no, we're not going down, that one size fits all, religion because we don't believe in that and it's not even practical. So they're put to they're put to death. So how does your personalized mentorship guide, uh, help individuals in reconnecting with their spiritual heritage? 

[00:38:18] Dr. Asanee Brogan: I would say if it's from a personal one on one perspective, I have to assess to see where that person is, right?

Because some people are in it, very fearful motor about what their, family things. I have some clients who are actively. Practicing their devotees of IFA and their families know nothing about it. And they've asked me, some of them have asked me like should I, talk to my mom or my dad, et cetera, about this.

And my question is always, where is your family with this? Are they going to ostracize? You know them better than me, right? So if it's going to present unnecessary challenges, I say just, keep moving forward. Everybody doesn't have to know because that's what I was saying before.

It's about like when to communicate that message. If it's not on a need to know basis, just keep moving. You don't have to tell people like me, for instance, my mother knows. But I know she's open minded. She's a Christian, absolutely a Christian, believes in Jesus wholeheartedly. But she's a very open minded loving person.

And she loves me no matter what. My dad, he's deceased now. He never knew that I practiced African spirituality. He actually didn't adopt Christianity until later in his life, but once he did, he was, bought and sold on it, lock, stock and barrel, even though his grandmother who raised him was a hoodoo practitioner, right?

So he knew about the traditions and everything. So he I never discussed this with him because it wasn't relevant. It was just never relevant for that conversation to be had. You don't have to tell everybody, but if you do. I have to have that conversation with people that's something that I will walk through, my clients with on a one on one basis, because everybody's scenario or situation is different.

And I guess to answer your question, it's basically that what's your personal situation? Because I deal with so many different scenarios. Whether it's the parents or some people, a major issue with people do have problems with their mate. And that can be a hard pill to swallow.

So you're married to somebody for 20 years. And in all of that. And you both were practicing Christianity, Islam, or whatever the tradition was together, and that's how you met. And then all of a sudden, you start to awake him. And you like, I want to go back to my tradition. But this person is still very much so grounded in the mindset, especially, I hop on Christianity mostly because it's always.

That notion of Jesus is the way to truth and the life, right? So anything outside of that dynamic is, sinful, what do you call it? Hypocrisy, heresy, whatever the word, the terminology is, I forget. It's been a long time, but it's you go to another system and this person knew you as a Christian, that's a hard pill for them to swallow.

And so you can't expect them to just move in that direction with you. They have to process it themselves.

[00:41:39] Ellington Brown: Is there a way that. The, I don't know, okay, there, there are many deities in, on the African spirituality. Can't you just slide Jesus as one of those deities and move forward?

Or is there just a hard stop where, okay, there, these two practices, they are separate and apart, and the two shall never meet? And, get on with it. Either you're going to be, on the side of Jesus. Or you're going to stand on the side of the old gods. 

[00:42:16] Dr. Asanee Brogan: So some people do integrate.

Okay, it can't be done. It will cause quite a few, quite a bit of conflict, right? If you believe in the notion that Jesus is the only way. To the most high God, if you believe in the concept that, they also have no other guys before me and all of this kind of stuff, that's going to create conflict within that person.

For sure. Are there people who do it? Absolutely. Our ancestors did it for years, right? Because they were most of them actually were synchronizing their deities. With the Catholic Church with the Saints rather from the Catholic Church, right? And even that goes back to, how these systems are very similar.

Catholics believe in a most high God, but they worship so many different Saints and that will basically be equivalent to us worshipping other deities. It's just our deities. They look like us, right? They came from our lands versus from somebody else's land. And so it's easier, back to your question for sure.

It's much easier for somebody who came out of Catholicism to integrate into the system versus someone who came from a very monotheistic Christian background where they don't have all of the saints and the other deities. Can it be done? Yes. People do it every day. It wasn't for me, but. Hey, you do whatever works for you.

[00:43:55] Rita Burke: I believe that you answered my next question by explaining that because my question was going to be, can you walk on both paths? Can you combine being a Christian with African knowledge and African ways of spirituality, or is that a huge philosophical clash? 

[00:44:23] Dr. Asanee Brogan: It's not. Hoodoo practitioners, this is ultimately what they do.

They use the Bible as a spell book, right? They absolutely believe in Jesus. They work with Jesus, but they also work with the other spiritual forces, they don't tend to deal with spirits in the same way that you see from tradition because again, who do like Haitian voodoo or Louisiana voodoo is an amalgamation of different spiritual practices.

But the tenant of who do is the Bible, which is very different than voodoo systems. Voodoo systems are more about synchronizations. Practitioners believe in Jesus the reason why I'm apprehensive with that part of the conversation is because of what Jesus really is like, this is a creative force.

And it's deep to go into it, but it is not. a deity in the same way that we, honor our deities. Just don't put something out there for people. You have to remember there was literally a slave ship called Jesus. You do what you want to do with that information. Yeah.

[00:45:32] Ellington Brown: That piece of information was brutal. That was really brutal. I almost choked on my own Adam's apple. Okay, here, so we talked a little bit about spirituality.

And now, how does your work empower individuals when they're reclaiming their spirituality and cultural heritage? What is that transformation that you see? That's, that happens when these people, all of a sudden they finally let, let Jesus go, tell him to go break bread. And now they take on, the African ways.

[00:46:11] Dr. Asanee Brogan: I'm going to say from, it's all about education, right? So knowledge is power as they say, and that's the foundation of my work. Education is always number one, because if you don't know you, this is what cause you causes the ignorance and the lack of empowerment and so forth and so on. If all you've been taught is Jesus, you don't know anything else.

And so my work is all about educating people about what the traditions are and what they are now, how to integrate into them in a salient way that is going to benefit your life. And not bring harm and destruction to you. And so it looks like once people have that knowledge, they can walk confidently and say, you know what, this is who I am.

This is what I came from. This is what my ancestors were doing. This is what my ancestors brought forth from what they were doing. Cause there's so much hidden knowledge. Oh, overall holistically about African people and our contributions to the world. Pretty much every system that we're working with in the world was built from ancient African knowledge, our political systems, our social systems, our economic systems, so forth and so on.

However, we're not given credit for those things. And so is, very similar when a person just becomes conscious, doesn't even have to be on a spiritual level black consciousness, where they start to realize that we had amazing thought leaders. We had amazing inventors. Our people did not just come from slavery, and that's it, and we made no worthwhile contributions to the world.

When you start to realize that many of the inventions that we work with today actually came from Black minds. Unfortunately, they were unable to patent their ideas, and so usually their slave master or another white person stole it from them and has taken credit for it. But. When you get that knowledge, you become empowered.

My people did do something, I have this lineage of people who made significant contributions to either our family, our community, or the world at large. And that gives you a whole nother level of confidence that if your ancestors did that mean that is running through your veins, you can do it as well.

You are not, less than you are not an unintelligent being whose only contribution to the world is to be a slave in the work for somebody else for the rest of your life. 

[00:48:47] Rita Burke: You are so on topic. In terms of education is critical, education is important because if we don't know, how can we be? And so my next question, Dr. Asani Brogan is, at what point in a person's life, I want to say a child's life, do we begin to teach them such critical wisdom and information about their history? About their lineage. When do we start to teach them and who does the teaching?

[00:49:25] Dr. Asanee Brogan: As soon as you have the knowledge, right? So at birth, ideally, we have to understand that other cultures do this, right? We talk about the Chinese in particular quite often. The Chinese, even though they might integrate into America or other countries, they make for certain that they always teach their children about their culture. So they don't depend on the school system to do this. They don't complain that oh, the school did not teach my children, that they are Chinese and that our people are from this and they do this.

So forth. No, they do this in community groups. They have a whole nother educational system where they are sitting with their young ones at very early ages, from the age of understanding, ultimately. This is who you are. You're Chinese. Yeah, you live in America, or UK, or wherever it may be, but you're still Chinese.

This is where your heritage comes from. This is your lineage. This is what your people did. This is what your people had. Even going back to that notion Chinese have been practicing their indigenous systems, which is pretty much on par with African traditions, right? For years, they do the the sacrifices, the offerings, they honor their ancestors.

This is a huge thing in Chinese culture. You go to any Chinese restaurant, you're going to see ancestor also, you're going to see a statue of Buddha, but they are thriving group of people. Why? Because they maintain their ancestral legacy. See, and how do they do it? They start their Children from birth.

And so that dynamic is going to look a little bit different for us because many of us do come to this knowledge later on in life. I would say, as soon as you start to learn, and you're solid in your understanding and your knowledge of what's going on, you start to transfer that knowledge. To your children, just like other people groups do.

[00:51:29] Rita Burke: Do you know, I'm a regular church goer, but over the years I'm noticing that younger generations are having their aha moments, at least in my family. And so they're saying, enough of that stuff. That's not fitting. I don't know if they're at a point as yet where they understand ancestral wisdom and spirituality, but they are cutting themselves off.

There's no question about that. I don't know if you're seeing that, but I'm seeing a lot of it. Yes, 

[00:52:10] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Absolutely, because, everybody has their time of awakening, and that's another huge thing. I don't proselytize, right? I don't go out trying to, recruit people into African spirituality.

Even as a Christian, I didn't believe in that, because I believe that awakening is going to come at a time and a place in that person's life. My goal It's to facilitate their process. So when somebody starts to wake up, it's okay I can go get knowledge over here because their foundation has already been laid for me.

And then going back to, what you were saying as far as Christianity, you're a church going, you're seeing the transition. A lot of people, a lot of the young people are seeing that system hasn't worked. We're still dealing with marginalization, disenfranchisement. Our people are suffering the same, if not more, in today's world as our ancestors did.

There's no, there's been no change. We worshiping Jesus. Okay. And so they're tired of this, and even going back to that notion when you really think about it colonizers gave us this guy. They gave us Jesus. Are they going to give you? A God that is going to come and save you from them? Not likely.

It makes no sense. And so a lot of people are coming into that wisdom. This is a mass awakening. The ancestors are coming back. The ancestors are already in us. And those really ancient ones are coming back and saying, we got to get back to who we were, right? Back to our own way of being, because we have that.

In us, we, this is not what we were dealing with, going back to the previous question. Can you still deal with Jesus and the systems? Absolutely, but you have to understand like what's your purpose? What's the end goal for what you're doing in this and definitely huge research huge awakening as I said before, I think IFA is maybe the top 5th or 6th religion worldwide as far as growth is concerned.

It is picking up major momentum. I think a lot of that has to do with accessibility as opposed to some of the other African traditions because there's a lot of information and knowledge out there about IFA. In opposition to maybe the con religion or some of the traditions out of South Africa or things like that.

And so we are seeing some significant growth as society transitions and our children are seeing. Those things don't work for us. They haven't worked for us. They've done nothing to change our situation, even like going back to what I was saying with the Chinese, they maintain for the most part. Yeah, you have Christian Chinese, you have, Islamic Chinese, but for the most part, they maintain their ancestral legacy and look at where they are.

In the world right now, right now we got people fighting to keep a Chinese app in America and it is like one of the number one apps, in the Western world that has a whole lot to do with these people's ancestors, giving them the wisdom, the knowledge and the protection and guidance that they need to rule the world.

[00:55:47] Ellington Brown: But, you brought up some interesting points, and one of them reminded me, or at least made me ask the question about religion and the sanctity of Jesus Christ, because I remember, and I guess I could call that my awakening, I'm in Australia, and this white woman was talking about the Mori people and oh, she's still going on about the Mori people and how they were discrimination and there was a lot of infighting and when she said that I just went no before I knew it I was telling her I says no all of this didn't start until The Europeans brought that Bible over here and gave them this religion and this religion was given to them so that they could conquer them. It wasn't anything about the love of Jesus, it was about conquering them. So don't sit here and try to whitewash this and to make it seem like it's all pretty and neat.

Needless to tell you, needless to say, I was escorted out of the museum, out of the museum, but I didn't care. I felt so much better after I got that out. So it just makes me now think. What is this religion, this Jesus religion, really about? And if it hasn't really moved us in the direction that relieves us from all of the pain and suffering that we've had for the past 400 years plus.

What good is it? Really? What good is it? You've had 400 plus years to make it right, and for whatever the reason, we haven't moved any further than we did 400 years ago. There needs to, definitely needs to be a change. There you go! The awakening. 

[00:57:48] Dr. Asanee Brogan: And, even back to your point, religion was the number one weapon used in conquering black people because they could not take us down until they removed our spirituality from us.

Because our spirituality is very powerful. We have medicines and potions and we know how to work magic, if it were for lack of a better word at the moment. And they knew. The only way to take us down was to come and take away our knowledge and our reverence of our spiritual forces. Once they could do that's when they had everything.

They came into the land with the Bible, right? And they left out with the land, and we were stuck with the Bible and we've made no progress since then. 

[00:58:41] Ellington Brown: I want to thank you so much, good doctor. For taking the time and actually just dropping tons of information. Some of it. Okay. As I said earlier, it was painful, but you know what you need to know these things just castor oil is something nasty that our parents used to make us take, but it had its benefits.

And so the things that I learned today, I felt were beneficial. We had, we got to talk a little bit about your background your expertise in African spiritual systems the books that you produced and why, and your podcast, and which is a part of your community building, your mentorship.

The creation of spiritual tools and the impact and legacy of your work. So I want to thank you so much for joining us today at SpeakUP! International. And please, I'm sure by next year, there'll be yet again another awakening, and I wanted you to come back and tell us what the spirits have led you to see and do. Rita, do you have anything you want to add to that?

[01:00:04] Rita Burke: You've encapsulated it all, Elton. I want to thank Dr. Asani Brogan for doing this. being with us on SpeakUP! International. I say to every guest that you pour a lot of information and knowledge and wisdom into us during our chats, during our conversations, and I just need to thank you. Thank you for what you do and what you are doing. Really appreciate that so much!

[01:00:35] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Absolutely. guys for having me. Look forward to definitely possibly doing it again. 

[01:00:41] Ellington Brown: We're going to hold you to it! 

[01:00:44] Dr. Asanee Brogan: Definitely!

[01:00:44] Ellington Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International! If you wish to contact Ms. Asanee Brogan, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Ms. Brogan at https://asanee44.com/. Ms. Brogan has other social media accounts you can use to connect to her that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms.

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