[00:00:00] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

[00:00:15] Rita Burke: As is customary for SpeakUP! International, we hop across the globe to find individuals we consider to be community builders. Today is no exception. We are hosting Rianna Raymond-Williams from England. Now, Rianna is in her final phase of her Ph.D. She co-wrote and directed a short animation called I Know He Loves Me.

She also self published an anthology which highlights the inequities experienced by racialized people who work in the sexual reproduction health area. As a part of her PhD. journey, Rihanna hosts a podcast called Reeve Speaks. On SpeakUP! International, we prefer if our guests tell their own stories, because there's so much more I can tell you about Rianna.

However, the floor is yours, Rianna. Welcome to SpeakUP! International. 

[00:01:23] Rianna Raymond-Williams: Hello. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really delighted to be here with you and share a conversation. So thank you so much for the invitation. 

[00:01:32] Ellington Brown: What I find so exciting is to always talk to individuals on the other side of , the world.

And in your case, you're in the U.K. I'd like for you to briefly talk a little bit about where you're from originally, and then can you share the key insights or findings from your PhD research on how black Caribbean , women experience sexual and reproductive healthcare services in the U.K.

[00:02:09] Rianna Raymond-Williams: So I'm born in the U.K but born into a Jamaican family. And from as young as I can remember, my mum made it a priority to always take me back to Jamaica every year to see my grandparents. I have, have such a love for my culture and Caribbean heritage. And my partner is Jamaican, and I think it's just beautiful to be grounded in your roots and heritage and have an understanding of your cultural legacy and how it creates your identity.

So I think it's a real valuable part of my identity that I will always give thanks to my mum for, because I know it's hard being a migrant in a different country and still maintaining your roots back home. So that is me born in the U.K, but Jamaican heritage. In terms of my research my research, as you rightly said, is about exploring how Black Caribbean women experience sexual reproductive health care services.

And a lot of that was informed or inspired by lots of my early career experiences working in sexual and reproductive health. So I've worked in sexual reproductive health for the last 15 years. I worked for NHS, National Health Services in the U.K. I work for the Terrence Higgins Trust. I also set up my own sexual health youth empowerment enterprise for young people as a means of providing education and empowerment to young people in a way that I felt was youth friendly and merged the themes of edutainment with education called edutainment.

So we started with a youth sexual health magazine called Shine Aloud and then we ventured on to do international training sponsored by Erasmus, which is an international organization that funds travel for young people in Europe. So yeah, a lot of that, a lot of the earlier, a lot of my earlier career and life was informed by my PhD.

I recognized very early on as a black Caribbean women, woman. There are inequalities that Black women experience, but I also feel that there is a way in which Black women all together are lumped, and I wanted to explore what is the particular experiences of Caribbean women. I know that even in that we have our different intersections of being a different dynamics of being from different islands.

Sorry. But I think there are similarities and differences. I really wanted to explore a bit further and hence the research and the study. So lots of it was talking about how do we access care? How do we provide care? And how do we advocate for better care? And some of the things that are coming out from the black women who've taken part have been that they felt some of their experiences have been quite intrusive.

So the three findings chapters of my PhD speak to the theme of intrusion advocacy, and then advocacy and healing, and then dreaming. So intrusion speaks to, how they feel they haven't had room to have agency autonomy over their choices or over their choices and things that happen to their body and instead words are said about their body that deem them to be hypersexual or promiscuous or their insisted contraceptive choices are insisted upon them because of how their body is perceived.

And then from those experiences, some women have felt that they want to use their negative experiences to help other black women as a way to be an advocate and support them on their journey of sexual reproductive health and healing. And then that leads to us thinking about what does better look like if we consider sexual reproductive health care services aren't adequately meeting the needs of black Caribbean women.

How can we redesign a service that does and will in the future? Who should it be delivered by? Where should it be delivered? In terms of like location, so often we think about clinics or pharmacies or hospitals, but what about faith spaces? What about community settings? What about pop up locations?

And I guess some of my earlier, earlier work in outreach has led to this thinking about being more accessible in terms of providing care. There's expectation that as a health service people just come to where you are, but actually there could be many reasons as to why somebody can't access the clinic.

And I think we need to do a bit more thinking about providing like personalized and individualized care that meets the needs of people. So yeah, in a nutshell, those are some of the things PhD so far. 

[00:06:28] Rita Burke: Very interesting! So you seem very passionate about this topic, and I'm impressed with that.

But something else you said, Rihanna, is that you are born in England to a Jamaican family, and I have not spoken to one person who is Jamaican. Who was born in England, who doesn't claim their roots of being Jamaican, and I think that's a wonderful thing. Wonderful thing. Now, you have done an animation.

Tell us a little bit about that. 

[00:07:08] Rianna Raymond-Williams: Yeah, so the animation, I even forget what year, now I'm aware it came out, but it came out a few years ago. And it was, it is an animation about intimate partner violence, and it was informed by Black and mixed race women, as well as written by Black and mixed race women about the experiences of intimate partner violence.

And I think oftentimes when we think about intimate partner violence, we think about the physical impact on the person who is a victim survivor. And because, people can see the cuts and the bruises or the, physical impact on somebody's body if they are in a domestically violent situation.

But less is known about the emotional impact, the manipulation, the mind control. And I thought it was very important to highlight these themes in a way that was, creative, but also accessible. Because we're having a conversation about things that you can't see, but things are experienced in people's bodies.

So I felt that animation was a way to communicate that. And it came out during the time of lockdown during COVID when everybody was like mostly in their houses because of the restrictions that was across the globe. But in those situations people can be very much locked down with an abusive person.

So it came out at a time when I think it was quite pertinent. and had the opportunity to really start conversations about I guess the impact of domestic violence, not just the physical impact, but also the emotional impact, and something that I think is less spoken about. So it really started a conversation about people recognizing the signs and the patterns of, emotionally abusive perpetrators, and maybe what does support help and access to resources look like so yeah, I think it was an entry point to begin these conversations about how do we communicate issues that are so sensitive in a culturally appropriate manner, but also using creativity as a tool to have these conversations in comparison to reading it on a piece of paper or seeing it in a slideshow presentation.

How can we use interactive media as a vehicle to tell these stories? 

[00:09:14] Ellington Brown: I think that's an excellent idea and an excellent way of being able to communicate to individuals through animation, because it's a living document, if you want to call it that, which I would think would be very effective.

You mentioned the phrase black versus mixed, race women, do you find, or do you suspect that there may be differences in their, in situations, whether let's say you're a black woman versus a mixed race woman? 

[00:09:54] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I wouldn't say it's versus I said black and mixed race women together, like we work together to create the content and design, design the script.

I think there's differences across all of us as black women, as mixed race women, and together, and I haven't done any work particularly to look at that, but I would be interested to know. But yeah, I think there are a variation of differences that we experience, and it's important to understand that, so that when we find solutions, we can appropriately help people according to their needs, for sure.

[00:10:26] Rita Burke: I am thrilled to bits to hear that people of colour, Black people in England are doing this kind of research. So the issues are global, aren't they? Abuse is abuse and it happens all over the world, but it's interesting you spoke about emotional abuse, which is something that is very hard to put your finger on.

Isn't it very hard to touch and to not to feel because you feel it emotionally, but it's hard to put your finger on and people will deny it. And as we know, there, there certainly is a cycle to any form of abuse, isn't there? So you edited and published an anthology in 2021. What inspired that project?

[00:11:13] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I think similarly in the pandemic I think I found a sense of creativity and I think it's a really interesting time in my life where I was still working and at the time I worked in sexual and reproductive health care services, but because I didn't have this social aspect of time to Effect of my identity, like going out to see friends or whatever.

I found myself in my home, and home is like a metaphor for lots of things, but I think of home as like grounding, being centered, being in touch, being in tune, and I think at a time of being at home, I had this wave of energy that led me to want to create. And invite other people to create with me. So the book came out of that.

And also recognizing the inequalities that some of it I speak about with my PhD. But also as practitioners working in the sexual and reproductive health space. So I wanted space to talk about that, reflect on that. And share space with others to have those conversations. So these things that we experience aren't individual, they're collective, but we each do have our own individual experiences of the inequalities that we face every single day.

And I think the book is an indication of that, and serves as a way to have a conversations about This is our experiences and it can be made better if we do different things. So yeah, I thought it was a very cathartic process to be able to write and invite other people to write alongside me.

Particularly in a time when there was so much chaos, uncertainty, death pain, upset, hurt yeah, there was just so much going on, but I think I really channeled my creativity as a means to, maybe escape as well and provide hope and joy to myself and others in that time. 

[00:12:59] Ellington Brown: You talked a little bit earlier about emotional abuse.

 We all know that abuse happens. And a lot of the abuse goes unchecked, goes undocumented. So based on what information that we have, the physical abuse it would be, let's say at one level, but during the pandemic, I would think it would have increased. Can you talk a little bit about , how much it has increased and if there are any stories that you can let our audience know?

Also, the signs that there may be abuse. down the pipe, because I'm, they are warning signs. I know they are. I come from a very abusive family, so I know the warning signs. So could you paint a picture for our audience? 

[00:14:06] Rianna Raymond-Williams: So I think particularly during the pandemic, one of the, major concerns was that during lockdown, lots of people may have been locked down with their abusers.

So that could be in family situations, it could be an intimate partner violence, it could be in, in friendships, when you're having to be in a place, and usually you might get away because you go to work or you go to see friends, you can escape, but actually in this time where you're not really allowed to leave your house and you have to be confined to one environment, your vulnerability is increased.

And you have very, a lot less protection. Particularly thinking about the animation. I think there's a series of things that happen in it. So I would encourage people to watch it. I'm happy to share a few things. The character Ava speaks about her partner checking her phone. And some people might dismiss that and think, Oh, checking my phone is, my partner really loves me, just wants me to be safe.

But there's an element of your privacy that's being interfered with. And then it goes into wanting to know where they are all the time. So yeah, again, my partner just, is really interested in my safety and protection and just wants to know. But again, the element of like surveillance, control, surveillance then it can turn into like name calling making you think things about yourself that are not true.

There's things that happen, words that are said, behaviors that are performed that continuously make you start to question your own identity, your own self worth your own autonomy and agency. It's all about like playing with your mind to make you then reliant on them to have all the control to a point where you don't have anything else but them.

And I think those are things that happen over time. And aren't things that you can see or pinpoint in particular, but the everlast that they can leave, they can really leave lasting effects, which can be really hard and difficult to recover from. Yeah, those are a few of the things that I would share, but I think the animation provides a lot more like it's a monologue.

One young woman is speaking about her experience, but in the monologue we learn about the particular things that happen in the relationship with her partner to then question that it's called, I know he loves me, but that's almost does he love you? Because if he loves you, why is he treating you like this?

And why is he behaving this way? Yeah, I think the animation gives us a few things to think about in terms of patterns of behavior. 

[00:16:32] Rita Burke: Yeah, does he love me? What does love look like? What does love feel like? What does love behave like? We're speaking with Rhianna Raymond-Williams, who currently is in England, and she is an, she did an animation, she wrote, co wrote an anthology and published it. She's studying for her PhD. And on SpeakUP! International, as we seek to inform, inspire, and educate and that's exactly what her story is doing for us today. But something else that Rhiannon does that really rings a bell and resonates with me is the fact that she hosts a podcast! I want to know more about that podcast, please, Rhiannon. 

[00:17:18] Rianna Raymond-Williams: Thank you. I think, I feel my creative energy, like it comes in bursts. So all the things that you mentioned, the book, the animation, and now the podcast, are things that I feel surges of creativity and just want to do things. And the podcast came out of I guess partly my PhD in terms of recognizing that I would have to be, I would have to be interviewing contributors of my study at some point.

And whilst my background's in journalism, it's in written journalism I had not less experience, but I think at times I felt less confident to have one to one conversations with people, although I talk so much about so many different things and I come from a kind of therapeutic, informed background in sexual health.

So the podcast was a way of me to hone my speaking skills and interview technique. But also to have conversations on the way that race, gender, class plays out in different elements of people's lives and work. So the podcast started, I think it started the second year of my PhD journey to document my PhD journey as a means of starting the PhD, the process I was going through as a way of being like informative to people who might want to do a PhD or on the journey already, but also inviting on activists, practitioners, artists and a range of different people to have conversations with me about their work. I'm very curious. I'm very much a curious person. So I feel like the podcast was allowing me to hold space for that curiosity, but also give something to others. So it's not just me having questions, the questions that I have have utility to other people.

And I guess it's also contributing to the archive of knowledge production. So giving myself space to create content that I was, that I think is important to be out in the world and share that with other people. So unfortunately it's been on pause because I've just been so busy at capacity and I have PhD writing to do, but I would love to get back to it in the new year because I think there's so many conversations I would love to have and host and record and share space with so many people.

It's just about finding the space and time. And I think as people who run a podcast Elton and Rita, the kind of logistic management of running a podcast. It's not easy. In terms of editing, scheduling, all of these things take time. I think it's beautiful and it's amazing.

It's something to celebrate, but I think you do have to have time and resources around you to do it well.

[00:19:53] Ellington Brown: So how do you integrate your youth work? Then you have community organizing, health awareness, journalism kicks in there. In bursts, as you call it, and what synergies have you found between these fields? 

[00:20:12] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I think there's something about the art of communication. It's something I think people take for granted.

But the ability to hold a conversation and to speak with people and hear them and not just hear them to respond, but hear them to understand is really invaluable. So I think for all of the work that I've done, it's really led me to being more effective at my communication. And like thinking about ways in which we can be better at communicating with others. So whether that's in animation, whether that's in a book, whether that's on a podcast, really exploring different mediums of communicating. And I think it's something I continuously think about. I would love to think about things like theatre and photography as other means of communication and telling stories.

But I think the bulk of it is about communication and storytelling for me and all of the work that I've done.

[00:21:08] Rita Burke: This is truly fascinating because I believe that both Elton and I are particularly interested and passionate about the whole concept. of communicating and communication and the effectiveness of it. We can connect in some way. I like to hear that. My question now to you, Miss Rihanna, is, was there ever a time, could you think of a time in your life when you had to say, enough?

[00:21:39] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I don't know if I ever say enough. I think it just happens. I have to stop something. And I don't know if that's the right way or just the way that it happens. I'm not always so organized with my time and commitments. Things happen for a minute and they might just stop. But the podcast is a perfect example of that.

I think it's something I would love to go back to and something that really gives me energy and so much joy. But in terms of capacity, it's just something I couldn't continue with. So it's a thing that I just had to say enough is enough now. But it's something that I regret because I guess if I was more planned and organised with my time, I could have seen that coming.

So sometimes things hit me really quickly. I'm like, oh, I didn't know that was going to happen. But I could have known you can't have all these 50 spinning plates and just expect one not to drop. So yeah, I think I'm trying to create a life that's a bit more realistic and doesn't lead me to burn out and be stressed and overwhelmed and unable to give to myself or others because that's not healthy.

It's not healthy for me or healthy for anyone. But I think I would much rather be in a place of choosing to stop things myself than things just stopping because I'm unable to do them. And I think that's a healthier way to approach life and commitments. 

[00:23:02] Ellington Brown: I have to agree with that because I think all of us in our creative lives. Do this burst thing. Okay, so we're gonna do 15 things in a week and you're flying high and sometimes you're hitting these challenges and you move them out of the way. But at the end of the week, you realize who you know what? I forgot one of the things that happened to be very important that I didn't get to.

And so this is, definitely something that all of us as humans, I think, need to reassess time and again. You've been working with sexual and reproductive health for about 10 years. over 10 years. So how have your roles in NHS and the Terrence Higgins Trust shaped your perspective on health care and accessibility and equity?

[00:24:07] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I think it's given me an insight into what currently exists and I guess, people, so that, expect, so understanding is that, you have a problem, you go to the NHS and you'll be treated and you'll be seen, but obviously sometimes there's delays, there's backlog, there's also a rush and you experience the rush as that patient in terms of you might see a practitioner and you have 10 minutes.

But it's a tick box because you've been seen, but it's not a quality care experience. So I guess I was introduced to a field of care, sexual reproductive health care in particular, that was providing a service that people need. But I think there's something, there's an additional layer of care, which is about quality, and then cultural sensitivity and equity.

And all of those words, I don't think really came into the experiences I were having in those previous roles. I guess it's taken me on a journey to really think about what does that mean in the work that I want to do and the work that I want to create. And even as I think about my research, some of the things that, as we talk about the dreaming aspect, so one of the chapters is about dreaming.

Some of the conversations have been about creating a black women's centre, a black women's centre that deals with sexual health and well being. And that be as specific to the needs of black women. So thinking about, these are structures that currently exist, be it the Terence Higgins Trust or the NHS or any other healthcare provider.

But we can also dream about what it is that we want, and we can find space and time and resources with people to make that happen. So I guess it's about seeing what currently exists. But also having the space to dream of the better, the new, the improved, the more equitable, the quality of care. So yeah, I think it's a starting point, but it doesn't have to finish that way.

And I think I like the opportunity to dream and dream of others about what better could be, look and feel like. The now and in the future going forward, 

[00:26:05] Rita Burke: You're talking about dreaming and years back, people were not encouraged to dream. But dreaming is so hopeful, isn't it? It gives you hope to continue to see in your head pictures of what you want your life, the world to look like.

So really, it is a healthy thing. But I want to go back to something that happens to us from the minute we're born. People are always giving us consult advice and suggestions. Could you think of the best piece of advice you've ever been given? 

[00:26:41] Rianna Raymond-Williams: So something my partner always says to me he says, "everybody's dinner's not ready at the same time". And as a Jamaican man, just like a lot of my Jamaican family, they always have These parables or words or phrases that are reflective of like life and it's something that's always sticks with me is something I think about often but essentially it's I hear what he's saying to me is that don't compare yourself to other people, and you're on your own journey.

And just because you eat dinner at one o'clock or two o'clock or five o'clock, we're all going to have dinner but just a different time. Your dinner's not any more important or less important than mine. It's just at a different time. So yeah, I think about that. That wasn't, that's in recent years he said that to me, but it's something I still hold in my heart and mind often.

Just about differences and how much difference is important, particularly when a lot of the world is so caught up on being the same. 

[00:27:35] Ellington Brown: Your background as a freelance journalist, appears to be impressive. So how has that informed your academic and creative work in sexual and reproductive health? 

[00:27:51] Rianna Raymond-Williams: So I think there's something about the curiosity that you have as a journalist or as a writer and I think that feeds my research journey.

I'm curious to find answers and have conversations, and I guess a lot of my PhD is about, holding space to have those conversations. Whilst I might have my perspective I'm essentially, and yes, I, in some ways, I'm guiding the research and Through my own eyes, I'm making, an analysis of what I believe the findings to mean or to reflect based on my own lived experience, which in a lot of ways is very similar to the women I've interviewed as part of my research.

But I guess you're holding space for like things to emerge. So suspending my judgment in some way, but also being very realistic and like understanding that these things are not individual, they're like collective experiences that people have. And it's hard to separate myself as an individual because I'm a Black Caribbean woman, but also relate and understand the things that Black Caribbean women say to me.

So yeah, I think there's something about curiosity and always like wanting to have, find answers and have questions. It's like an endless thing about me. I always have questions for things. So I think journalism and writing has honed that skill in me. 

[00:29:21] Rita Burke: I have a hard time putting labels on people.

I don't like to label people because I think we all are intersections of so many different things and people as well. But I want to hear of something simple that puts a smile on your face.

[00:29:41] Rianna Raymond-Williams: My granny and my mum they are really big parts of my life. My granny is just turned 90 in September, my mum's going to be 70 in December, a couple weeks time. And I think it's just so beautiful, they're very interested women very Jamaican women. And I just think they always have something funny to say or something interesting to say or something that's like wise words that you don't always know is going to come, but it just happens.

So I love to be around them. I love to speak to them. Yeah it's just, I think it's, I think, yeah, it's really beautiful to see them age as well. I'm in my 30s, so there's like a big age difference between my mum and then with my granny. But it's, I think it's really beautiful to see these two black women as, older people and share space with them and have conversations.

[00:30:32] Rita Burke: What do you mean, Jamaican women? I don't get it. What are Jamaican women like? That's with a smile on your face. 

[00:30:43] Rianna Raymond-Williams (2): I don't have to explain that in words, but they're just very Jamaican, got it. Got it. I can't explain. I can't explain, yeah,

[00:30:52] Ellington Brown: So what do you see as the most pressing issues in sexual health and reproductive health for black and racialized women in the U.K today? 

[00:31:11] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I think something that came out of my study also spoke about so some people, not everybody engages in research and sometimes that's why we have the inequalities that we do, but my research was actually oversubscribed so lots of people wanted to take part and I just didn't have capacity because I'm a PhD student, I can only take on so much.

So whilst that was an indicator of interest for people to share their views and perspectives, It also came up in the conversations I was having, that people want space, they want space to contribute to conversations, to think about their experiences, but they also want to be spoken to and with Black women.

So I think there's something about creating a safe space that Black women can engage in that's resourced and appropriately funded. Is something that I think it would be really beneficial and I think that is not the only answer, but I think it's a solution to some of the inequalities that we see, where people feel like they are being dismissed, they're being judged, how space is not being held for them.

If we provide spaces more often then maybe we can begin to have these conversations about our experiences. Yeah. 

[00:32:23] Rita Burke: Yeah. Based on what you're saying to us, and based on our lived experiences, we know we live in a world that's packed with judgment, where the inequities, twofold, a hundredfold, two hundredfold.

Thank you. That sometimes could dampen our enthusiasm or hope, those kinds of things. So what gives you hope?

[00:32:51] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I think

it's a really hard question. I really think having these conversations give me hope. It gives we don't things, Can be bad and can be upsetting, but things can also get better. And I think we need to live that, believe in that. I'm a woman of faith as well, so I believe in God, the creator and his divine clan and him as a divine, being and things that, some things we don't understand.

And I think I lean into that hope of the guidance. The assurance, the affirmation and just hopeful for things better is yet to come, which I know it's really hard to believe and for some people can seem a bit airy fairy particularly when so much badness is happening, but I think we have to hold on to something.

We really do have to hold on to something. 

[00:33:44] Ellington Brown: I agree. If you don't have hope, all is lost. So once you complete your PhD, what are you gonna do? 

[00:33:57] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I'm ready to travel everywhere. , I feel like I've been studying since I began studying . And I'm ready just to sit down. I don't know. I think I'm asked that question often.

And I guess passing the PhD is the hurdle. But there's the other hurdle of okay, you pass your PhD, you're now Dr. Rihanna and you've presented your research to your examiners, but there's a whole other challenge of presenting your research to the world, and thinking about what form is that going to take?

Is that going to be a film about the work that I've done and why I've done it and the impact that it's had? Is it going to be a journal publication in academia? Is it going to be a newspaper article? Is it going to be a focus group? But thinking about all the means in which I can share the work that I've done, but also link it to like public health strategy and work and policy as a means of it having impact in the future.

So maybe after the rest of the traveling thinking about how do I share what I've done, I'm also really committed to making sure other people do PhDs as well, particularly black women. I think there's always something we have an interest in researching, but aren't always given the support, advice or guidance.

I know particularly when I was in my undergrads that's when I was like, 18, 19, 20, I did want to do a PhD. But there was nobody to support me, guide me or suggest anything to me. And I guess I started my PhD my late 20s, my late, I think I was 20, I'm now 33. Like four years ago, I started my PhD.

And I think what would have been different about my journey, if I had the opportunity to learn about the academic terrain a lot earlier. So part of my commitment is also ensuring that I give back to my community. support to the younger generations of PhD students who are coming through and think about how I can support them, uplift them, share with them.

Because I think it's really important. I think it's so important that we have this community around us to enable us to grow, develop and yeah, move forward. 

[00:35:58] Rita Burke: You have a passion for changing your life, for changing other people's lives, and that is admirable. I like the fact that you said you want to encourage more women to do their PhDs.

Kudos to you! Is there anything else that you wanna share with our audience that you, we haven't asked you? 

[00:36:22] Rianna Raymond-Williams: No, thank you. I think you've given me all the space to share. Thank you!

[00:36:27] Ellington Brown: I do have one more, one more question, and this is, how do colonial legacies impact sexuality and sexual identity formation, and why is it something that's needed as a platform for our communities?

[00:36:51] Rianna Raymond-Williams: I think again, something else that came out, I guess I spoke about the chapter of intrusion. And I know in, I know in black communities that there's a term that's used around like young black girls, and there's a perception that young black girls are fast. Fast because they weigh they might wear earrings when they're like 12 or 13 fast because, their bum is beginning to get bigger or their hips are beginning to get bigger or their breasts are getting bigger.

So all these comments about young black girls being fast. It suggests that we're doing something, but actually puberty has happened to our body. And I relate that back to colonialism, where Black women were seen as like hyper sexualized and promiscuous and sexually available, but actually none of the sex that was happening in that time was consensual.

We didn't have autonomy or agency over our bodies. So now we bring it back into contemporary day, where young Black girls are being told that they're fast because of how other people are seeing their bodies, when actually People are doing things to their bodies and not being reprimanded as a result.

But black women are then living with the shame and the discomfort of being in their own bodies and feeling the need to cover up or hide or not have conversations about what's happening for them. So yeah, I think it's so problematic. And sometimes we in our own communities do this to ourselves.

Instead of having conversations about how people are going to view our bodies or the comments that people might make. We are shaming young black girls for how their bodies are or, their experiences of, going through puberty or adolescence instead of having conversations and holding space for that really intimate and sensitive time.

And I think it's because we are scared as a community. We're scared to have these conversations. Sometimes there's hidden stuff that's happened that needs to be talked about, but hasn't. And then that gets carried on generationally. But actually, we are doing ourselves a disservice. By not having the conversations and having the language about what's happened historically and how that plays a part in who we are today.

So yeah, I think there's a colonial legacy of like how black women's bodies have been seen. It even speaks to sometimes our pain being dismissed when we go to health providers and we talk about, the pain that we have, people don't believe us. And that can lead to severe consequences of death.

And, particularly in the U.K, black women are four times more likely to die in pregnancy and childbirth as a result. And I know in US there's similar statistics as well. So there's a whole legacy of how black women's bodies and black people's bodies have been seen and perceived. And we haven't really recovered from that.

We haven't really acknowledged it. We're still trying to, people are still trying to deny it. It even exists as an issue. And I think if we as a black community can begin to hold those conversations with our own people first that they feel protected, held and supported we can move further a lot quicker by not, but not having the conversations, not the answer.

And by making young black girls feel ashamed of their bodies is not the answer. I think we need to be having really honest and open conversations about all of these things, as I've just shared. 

[00:39:52] Ellington Brown: I think. Overall, a lot of our problems have been suppressed because they've been cloaked by, with shame, and I think that covers so many topics that are important to our communities, both men and women.

Where the shame happens to be the smothering factor in terms of getting these issues out so that we are able to, as you said early, openly and honestly discuss these issues. I want to thank you so much for joining us today. And I hope that when you decide to write your next book or you put together another animation project, whatever you decide to do, we would love to know about it and have another conversation with you on SpeakUP! International.

Rita, is there anything you'd like to add? 

[00:41:05] Rita Burke: I want to thank you from the depths of my heart. As you said, It's receptacle. We do this conversation. We have this conversation with you and would you believe it that you feed us and your life's journey is rich and you're doing amazing work. And I thank you for it.

And when it comes to the shame thing, that's a tool we know historically that's been used to keep us in our lane, in our place. But I think we've got the number now and we're not buying in. And those conversations are happening here, in Canada where I am. And we'll continue those conversations because we know that we've got agency.

I thank you Rianna Raymond Williams for joining us in SpeakUP! International! 

[00:41:57] Rianna Raymond-Williams: Thank you so much for having me, it's been such a pleasure to have such a wonderful conversation with both of you and giving me a chance to reflect on some of the things I don't think about often in my career and some of the things that I do and just move on to the next thing.

Thank you so much for sharing the space and having a really wonderful dialogue with me, I really appreciate it.

[00:42:15] Ellington Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International! If you wish to contact Ms. Rianna Raymond-Williams, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Ms. Rianna Raymond-Williams. At www dot shine, allow.co.uk. Ms Rianna Raymond-Williams has other social media accounts you can use to connect to her that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms. 

Are you interested in the opportunity to be interviewed and have your cause promoted by SpeakUP! International? We invite you to connect to us by sending a message that includes your name, company or organization name, the valuable service you offer to your community and your email address to info@speakuppodcast.ca. 

Worried about your confidence as an interviewee? Don't fret! SpeakUP! International can provides you with the necessary training so you shine during an interview! To receive training information and a 10% discount about the SpeakUP! International's Podcast Interviewee Trainee Program, email us at info@speakuppodcasts.ca. 

You can also reach us using Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. 

To connect to our podcast, use Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform and search for SpeakUP! International. You can also find our podcasts using our web address. www.speakuppodcast.ca. Our logo has the woman with her finger pointing up mouth open, speaking UP! 

By joining Patreon, we can offer you an exclusive opportunity to become an integral part of the continued success of our podcast. Your financial support will enable us to cover the costs associated with producing high quality content such as equipment upgrades, hosting fees, and professional editing services. 

As a member of our Patreon group, you will gain access to a wide range of exciting benefits! We are working on providing you early access to new episodes and the opportunity to suggest topics or guests for future episodes. Your contribution will not only help sustain the continuity of the podcast, but also allow us to enhance the overall listening experience for all of our dedicated followers. 

Help us help you! https://www.patreon.com/speakupinternational. 

At SpeakUP! International, we aim to inspire, to inform and to educate