[00:00:00] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

[00:00:18] Rita Burke: Thanks to technology, we're able to travel the world from our respective offices. Earlier today, we had a conversation for SpeakUP! International with a woman who lives in England. Now, we're here, we're one hour later, talking to someone who is in Toronto. Yes, we have Michelle Forde, who is an educator and communication specialist with us right now.

Michelle has over 15 years of experience in program management, equity, and instructional design. She has a Master of Education in Equity and Social Justice degree. Michelle has Also, the honor of building strategic partnerships within a diversity of communications across Toronto. Recently, our guest, Michelle Forde, joined the Toronto Metropolitan University in the role of Program Management Presidential Implementation Committee.

I could say so much more about Michelle, but as we say on SpeakUP! International, we like for our guests to tell their own stories. And so I welcome you to SpeakUP! International. Michelle Forde with an E! 

[00:01:43] Michelle Forde: Thank you very much. Oh my goodness, that is quite an introduction. I feel the rush. Most of the segment I'm going to have to work to keep up with that introduction!

It is an honor, a pleasure, and most importantly, more importantly, a joy to be here. Thank you for the work that you do in community, for seeing seeing us as we are and creating a space to have these organic conversations. Many thanks to you both! 

[00:02:11] Ellington Brown: Thank you for the compliments, the support.

We really do appreciate that! , I am a person who loved Modern Family. And I want to know, what was the most memorable lessons that you learned on that set that still influences you today?

[00:02:33] Michelle Forde: Family. Knowing that we come together and we stay together and we become ourselves together, I think that it is always important to know that you are not alone and that laughter is the best medicine. And I know that's said sometimes as a cliche, but it is the truth. If you can't get through it with laughter, you'll be in it.

And I would share definitely the importance of laughter and community, and knowing that you have that circle around you. And everyone came to the talk for the same reasons, I hope. 

[00:03:15] Rita Burke: Yeah, I second that comment in terms of laughter. And when you are in education, you have no choice but to embrace and internalize laughter, because so many things can happen.

But prevent you from even smiling. So then, Michelle, please tell us why and when you chose to become when you chose a career in education. 

[00:03:43] Michelle Forde: I think that I think the field chose me. It's one of those situations where you're called into it. I believe. I grew up in London, Ontario, and in the latter part of the 90s, 80s, 90s going through finding your voice in a space where We did not have the representation in the Black community.

Our numbers just weren't there to be able to ensure that no matter what space you went into that you would be seen. And so I, from a young age had those questions about imagining Black futurities. Of course, I didn't have that language at the time, but I just knew that something didn't feel authentic when I was in the classroom and I didn't see Myself reflected in the material that was taught and the lessons of my elders and the people in community that were so important to me didn't seem to hold any representation or any meaning or even to exist in those spaces. And so one thing led to another, of course, you find your way through systems. We always survive as Black folks, we find a way through. But even at that young age, I knew that something needed to change. And I felt the storytelling, our oral history, the lessons that we share I wanted to be able to make sure that knowledge was passed on to other black students and know that they would have a better experience.

And my sister, my older sister also went through the education system in London, Ontario. And It had a different effect that lack of representation and even, the microaggressions, all of that had a different effect on each of us as tends to happen, I think, just because we're all unique individuals.

And for my sister, she ended up being pushed out of the system in grade 10 and I. Can say now with time and with healing and with experience, she returned to adult education, completed her degree and is now in post secondary, but The process of getting to that point was entirely more fraught than it should have been.

And I'm aware that some folks can receive an education and others have to claim it. And that's what called me into becoming a teacher. And I distinctly remember having this conversation with Carol Talbot, who was my English teacher in high school in London. And I was blessed to have One black teacher, and I had her in grade nine for English, and I had her again in grade 12 for English, and it might seem, on the surface of that, that I didn't have any time in between, just those two years, but she was there for me, from the very moment that I arrived at that school, she was walking with me, I came into my consciousness, I learned about black literature, black studies, At the time, I had no concept that she was developing this specifically for me.

We had journals where we would write back and forth. I had, I think, come into my voice definitely as a result of that relationship. And it had such an effect on me that I knew that's what I wanted to do. And when I told her that I wanted to become a teacher, she said to me, initially, lift your sights.

You must lift your sights and carry forth in, in ways that take you beyond the space. I want to see you move beyond the space. And then of course she realized that her determination was the same as mine. And here we are. It's a bit of a journey that I took you on, but it is a journey. I think that question takes us to places and spaces in our memory thank you for that. 

[00:07:28] Ellington Brown: This is a journey that we're on right now, and it is one of discovery because we're learning a lot of things about you, but we also find that this environment can lead to self discovery as well. And so we try not to, lock ourselves into one thing or another, but we allow our conversation, this conversation to move organically.

So what do you see? Or how did you balance, if you did, balance your careers, one as a movie star, one as a educational instructor, how did you find a way to balance them so that, because both of those are high demand jobs, so they could drive you nuts. to juggle all of this stuff. So how did you do it?

[00:08:35] Michelle Forde: How did I balance career? I certainly, I don't envision myself as a movie star. I maybe in, in the eyes of some of the if I've been blessed to be in community with but. In my career I always have been situated as a classroom teacher regardless of where I go, and in this very moment, even as I find myself in post secondary education, I still identify as a teacher, always identify as a teacher, and so for me, that is so important.

Balance is remembering why you are here, what you're called to do. Yeah. It's never really been confused for me. I think because from such a young age I knew the urgency of the call to this work. And so being a classroom teacher being a community with youth, working in the city of Toronto across the north.

East, west. I think the only place I didn't have rootedness for a long period of time was in the south end of the city, but I did have teaching experience there as well, too. Yeah, it, it hasn't ever been something that I've grappled with, I think, because as you do in your own work as well, and as your own being in community, it's just a natural thing.

Yeah. space. And you listen to folks who are in the spaces with you that you're blessed to be in. And I take my cues from them, ultimately. Yeah. 

[00:09:58] Rita Burke: Do you know, Michelle, I guess this is going to age me. Because when I went to university, the courses that we were offered, the courses that were available, Nursing, Psychology, Sociology, those kinds of things.

You took a Masters in Equity and Social Justice. That didn't exist when I went to university, unfortunately. Talk to us about content of a course like that, please. 

[00:10:34] Michelle Forde: Absolutely. I don't know that your experience is any different than mine, to be honest, because everything is always changing around us in the field of education.

And now we're grappling with how to prepare youth for careers that we don't even know exist yet and what that entails. So there's always an openness, I think, at any point in time. That we're trying to figure things out build the plane as we attempt to fly it together. And so for me the first part of this journey was a Bachelor of Education and that's the degree that's required for your teacher certification.

So you complete your Bachelor of Education and then of course through your areas of specialization, you then are qualified to apply for a teaching scholarship. Certificate and that takes you into the classroom. And the next step that many of us make when we get to a certain place where we don't feel that our journey has come to its conclusion we proceed to the Master of Education and it isn't as complex as it seems when you look at the rationale for what it is.

A Master of Education in Social Justice is really just that a deeper exploration of the political social, historic, and economic conditions for learning. And so at the Bachelor of Education level, it's a little bit more nuts and bolts in terms of childhood development and pedagogical practices and being steeped in some of the curriculum and exploration that you do in lesson planning.

At the master's level. It's really a focus more on leadership, research and innovation. What can you bring from your experience? Because the understanding is that you've been in the classroom. You've been doing this work for some time. What can you bring from that experience to give back to the community to get back to the profession to get back to your colleagues?

What lessons have you learned now? And I had the opportunity as a teacher student teacher to share and it was a really important time for me. I went to that experience because I had questions that were that was grappling with in my experience in the classroom, especially in the communities where I've been committed.

My entire span of my career communities, our communities, full of just a rich cultural. Routedness, but also grappling with the under resourcing that happens at a systemic level. And so we are there together. We are strong together. We are soft together, but we are trying to find a way through those critical resources that aren't as they should be.

And that's the part that I had difficulty with and there's some things that can't be addressed in the classroom alone. Many that can't, but structurally. It's challenging and I wanted to be able to share the truths of what I had experienced and what our youth are experiencing in a way that it would be seen, it would be acknowledged, and it would be shared.

In a record that could not be denied. And that's what took me into the research side, thinking about leadership black leadership, specifically, and what that means for social transformation and social change. Hopefully that made sense. 

[00:13:59] Ellington Brown: That made perfect sense. Three words. Authenticity, I can't say the word now, confidence, and purpose. Or ACP, can you explain how leaders can be able to cultivate those three qualities? in their life, thus imparting it in others. 

[00:14:29] Michelle Forde: Absolutely. Authenticity is the root of who you are. It is the root of where you come from, and it is what you bring as you move forward.

And it's so important to be truthful and to embrace the beauty of where you come from. And we all have different experiences, but there is an urgency in ensuring that wherever you have the privilege to go that you remember who you are, because otherwise you lose your way and you forget and you get confused about what really matters.

And so for me the root of authenticity is always continuing to be in community and that way you don't lose that space and purpose. And then in terms of where you go from the authenticity into purpose. Because you're in community, because you remember who you are, and because you know what needs to be done so that everyone can flourish, that leads you to your purpose.

If you are listening, you are learning, and you're able to then follow a path that may have its own twists and turns, but you know what you're trying to reach towards, and that's where the purpose comes from. The authenticity and the purpose, I think, are uniquely linked, and I would say, The superpower of pink black is that we don't have a question about that authenticity and purpose. It's urgent, and it's it's beautiful, but it's palpable what we are trying to move towards together. 

[00:16:05] Rita Burke: Michelle, I've never heard that term before, but it's making me think and I like what I'm thinking. I've never, I never thought I had a superpower. And now that you said, because we're Black, we have superpower, I can conceptualize that.

It makes sense, because we are such a resilient people! We know how to dig into our roots to prosper. And I thank you for reminding me of that. Never thought about it before. Now you won a scholarship. I want you to talk to us about what that was like and what it's about, please. 

[00:16:47] Michelle Forde: Absolutely. I think that it was a, an exciting and also very disorienting experience because there's the formal curriculum there's the formal recognition of knowledge, and then there's so much richness and tradition and culture and precious learning that we have in our own community.

And so being in a formalized space, being in a post secondary space, being recognized in those spaces, and then Also having to work through in my own mind what I'm carrying with the beauty of what I'm carrying with me and trying to bring those two together. So it was a little bit disorienting to know that all of a sudden, because I'm in a particular space, that suddenly this knowledge becomes so valuable.

But it's the same stories that, we hear at our grandmother's feet. It's the same methods. that we observe as we're moving through in community together. Yeah, it was a little bit disorienting, but it also gave me a sense of purpose because I remember having a conversation with Sandy Hudson.

She was in the program with me at the time and we know, of course, she's one of the co founders of Black Lives Matter Toronto, and Sandy and I had the same experience of being a little disoriented when we're being celebrated for certain things that are just the norm in our community. And she said it wasn't until she came to the University of Toronto in this prestigious program that she realized, oh this space actually isn't elevated.

We call it the ivory tower, but. I'm in my classes, and I'm doing my research, and I don't see anything here that I haven't already seen in community. And so it wasn't until we got into certain spaces that we understood that they are constructed in certain ways and positioned and posited in certain ways for those of us who are often not in those spaces to make us think that we don't belong there, that we can't get there, or that if we get there, we won't be able to prosper and thrive.

So I'm taking you on a bit of a story with my answer, but I don't, in some ways, I reject. The formal recognition I embrace it in necessity, but I reject the distinction that in order to have something of value that it needs to be recognized by an academy. And it was just happenstance that things worked out the way they did.

I made the application because again, the sense of urgency I wanted. Our work in community to be recognized. I didn't have any preconception of whether or not I would make it through the process. And then when I did, it reminded me even more that I have to be careful in these spaces to ensure that I remember what I'm supposed to be doing here, because it can very easily get confusing and your focus can change.

[00:19:49] Ellington Brown: It's really. Difficult I think in a lot of fields in order to keep focus because of the fact of the attention and that attention sometimes can be distracting and before you know it you're off on something else because there's been another shiny little object that's been waved in front of you and you go running off to do that.

I know that you navigated over multiple careers. And that in itself can be stressful, especially when you have to stop and go, wait, what am I doing here? And that in itself can be jarring. So tell me from your careers, can you give me two memorable moments that were profound and or hilarious?

[00:20:51] Michelle Forde: Absolutely! The hilarious moments. There's so many of them, especially in working with youth. They always keep you laughing. And that's the one thing that I find I miss the most in post secondary because obviously you're still working with students and still in community there. But it's different than when you're surrounded by hundreds of teenagers who always bring a certain energy that I so appreciate.

And I I would always think about just the stories that that we experienced together. So I have one that comes to mind, and it's my barbershop story. And you may be thinking how could you have a barbershop story from a high school? Huh? Again many exciting twists and turns in the life of the school.

I was in Downsview Secondary School in our appreciation program, vice principal there, and my heart is always and will remain at Downsview, and it was just an ordinary day ordinary, extraordinary day and our child and youth counsellor came to me and said, Michelle I think we should go take a walk, and I was on the main floor just by the entrance, and I looked at him quizzically, and I said now, because, there are people coming and going, or just things happening I wasn't really planning, and He said no, I think we need to go and take a walk now.

And when he said to me in that way, I knew there was something off. We went up to the second floor and we're getting close to the end of one of the side hallways. And I see that he's leading me towards the boys washroom and said What's going on here? I can't go in there! And he said, Oh no, I think you need to let me just go first and ensure that there's no one in the stall.

So we went first in the stall in the washroom. I heard some commotion. Couldn't really quite make out from the voices. Then he said, Come on in. I came in and there was a full barbershop set up in the washroom. There was a stool that they had brought in they had the clippers. There was a little like orderly line of patrons and whatever.

Beautiful black young man in there holding with precision his clippers and looking to me and looking back to the clippers and looking back to me and then looking to the Child and Youth Counsellor and realizing, you're busted. And in that moment, everything went silent. The hum of the activity, the hum, you could just hear the eraser in the background, the bits and pieces buzzing.

And everybody looked to me and I realized in this moment and this is what captures the beauty and the complexity of being a school administrator, you have to get it right. So on the surface, according to, the Ontario Education Act, School Code of Conduct, we have technically a weapon, right? We have a metal instrument we have hygiene and safety regulations that are being broken.

We have the school code of conduct that's being broken because y'all should be in class. Why are you in the washroom getting your hair done? I could go on and on, but at the same time, we have a young man who has a skill. We have a young man who has a talent. We have a young man who was a lineup of customers and has put together a business plan because I noticed his friend there, his a fellow student had his cell phone and he was scrolling through the appointments.

They had set up an appointment process on the phone. So I said, you, y'all are brilliant! You are absolutely brilliant! You have a business here. This is really something. And they smiled because they thought there was a chance. And I said, but y'all are busted. We cannot be doing this.

We can't. So I cleared the space. And then, of course, you don't need the boring details of what happened after that. But I can say that is a suspendable offense. And if you didn't have a black administrator, and if you weren't in an Afrocentric program, and if I didn't have that level of cultural awareness, that could be a moment where that young man who is expressing his motivation, his drive, his talent could have been crushed in that moment and have a negative school record that would follow him.

Instead, it became a conversation. We connected him with one of the teachers in the building who taught barbering, which is where he learned. The skill set and we explain that, their health and safety regulations. And so we set him up so that he could extend this experience. But in the right setting, we connected him with a business teacher who could explain to him business plans.

And, and take those skills and apply them positively. But this is an example. It's a wild story, but this is an example of what the life of the school administrator involves. It's hilarity, but it's also it gave me pause because at the end of the day after the building had emptied, and I was sitting there in the quietness of my own space thinking.

How could this have gone differently? How could this have gone differently? What might have helped this in my plan? And the conversation with his family went beautifully well, and we were all in an understanding together, but that's a privilege. It's the privilege of having representation. That's a moment of hilarity and I actually lost the other point.

You asked for a moment of hilarity, and the second moment, I think I may have wrapped it into this. 

[00:25:58] Ellington Brown: That's okay, I'm sure Rita can take it from here. 

[00:26:01] Rita Burke: I like that story. I'm basking in that story. I see creativity. I see innovation. I see side hustle. I see strengths and skill sets coming through from enslavement down to generations.

You need to make a buck. You find an honest, creative way. to make a buck. And thanks for the way you managed that. I just wonder what became of that young man. I'm really curious to know what became of that young man. But I want to shift now to your position at Nelson Canada. Talk to us about that, please.

[00:26:40] Michelle Forde: Absolutely. It was a side adventure. Every now and again, I like to keep things fresh to always be learning. And so I thought to myself, how can I have an opportunity in a space of curriculum where I will be able to share some of these learnings that we have in the community in a way that it will take roots.

And that others in different schools across, the province across the country might be able to hopefully find a seed from some of that, that they could plant for themselves and for their students. And so that was what called me to think about working in publishing to think about being involved in a project where there would be a textbook digital and physical that would come out of that.

And so that was my motivation. I was originally hired as a writer, but there was developmental editing work involved and features writing work involved and simply put, there's a team of folks who are called together different subject specialties and we're given the task of coming up with a concept and a manuscript on a subject area.

In our case, it was civics. The civics curriculum had just changed and there was new expectations that come through the Ministry of Education. And that usually leads to a wave of activity where publishers are trying to respond and teachers and staff and schools are trying to respond, get resources together.

And so they called us to to this task, to put together something meaningful that would allow students to learn and thrive. And that was the task. I contributed two chapters to the global citizenship test. One was global activism, and the other was in community based activism. And my goal was to, was twofold.

One, so that students and staff in different communities where they may not have access, And so that students could learn how to navigate something as simple as I have an issue in my neighborhood. I'm feeling overwhelmed. I don't know who to go to. Do I have an ability to speak about this at City Hall?

What does that involve? So making a deputation is one of the sections that I was speaking about. It's it's. Privileged enough to create some interactive resources around and my inspiration for that actually was right here in the city of Toronto. At the time we had Mayor Rob Forde, who was in the mayoralty for the city of Toronto, and there were some very serious budget constraints, and I.

Recall as many of our listeners. I'm sure do that. There was talk of significant budget cuts to the lack of libraries, closing libraries across the city and it was noticeable that they were concentrated in areas of high need, and Scarborough specifically Scarborough Centre was one of those areas, and because I was teaching in the East at the time I was aware of a student who herself made the decision to bring her story publicly forward.

The Toronto Star caught wind of it. There was a feature on this grade nine student who actually had anxiety about coming forward to speak publicly. But she found her way to City Hall and she learned how to do a deputation. And she stood before the entire Council of City Hall, beautiful brown girl, and found the words to say, I need my library.

You might think that it is there was talk about how there are more libraries than Tim Hortons in, across the city, but what it means to me is I have a place to study. I have a quiet place where I can explore and learn. I have a place where I can meet my friends. I have a place where I can get help when I need it academically, and I don't know what I would do.

Was so moved by this because I remember it was a session for counsel that went to past midnight. It was a marathon council session. And this student was there with her family and she broke down in tears while giving her deputation. And I thought. I have to do something about this. I have to find a way to make sure that the other young folks who see me and feel urgency don't have to do it in a traumatic way and feel like out of place and not know what they're doing.

And so that was my inspiration and her story actually became the center of that section, that feature. On how to present a deputation in City Hall. So again, I've taken you on a bit of a journey, but I find that in what we do and what I do, what we all do, there's always a story there. And that's what compelled me to want to be in the space of curriculum design.

So that these. Systems pieces of knowledge that many of us might not have access to make sure that it's transparent and to make sure that it can be taught in a way that's manageable because teachers are overwhelmed in spaces as well. And students are overwhelmed in spaces. So if I have the honor of going through that.

And witnessing it in my community, maybe I can share that in a way that's meaningful. And one thing led to another. We had the text we had a series of chapters that came from that. We had public relations launches around it. I was on leave from TDSB at that time. For this project, specifically for this project, when I knew that my urgency would come back and that's exactly what it did, and I returned upon conclusion of that text and it's Civics in Action, and at the time, it was McGraw Hill Ryerson Publishing, and then they were bought out by Nelson Canada, and that transition happened while I was there, but I will never forget, I will never forget her courage.

[00:32:21] Ellington Brown: Sounds like a very courageous woman. Externalist success doesn't equate to personal empowerment. So how do you define success for yourself and how has that definition evolved?

[00:32:41] Michelle Forde: That is an excellent question. It is important to remember who we are and what keeps us grounded. And for me, it is.

It is family. It is community. It is. The lessons of my elders. My mother and father specifically may my father rest in peace. We lost him over the course of the pandemic, and I will never forget that it doesn't matter how difficult the journeys are that he experienced, both originally at home in Barbados before coming to Canada, and and being in as blunt as I can say it, not having the necessities as a young child, and I don't even just mean material resources, but not having that circle of care where you can grow and thrive.

 He was able to cultivate something within himself and this knowledge that he was deserving of love and deserving to explore his skills and interests and that brought him here to us. I won't go through the whole journey, but there were many in between and I always remember the joy that he had every day and his life wasn't always easy.

He worked very hard physical labor, and and the mental labor, of course, that comes with that. But he taught me to hold my head up high to hold my arms out to encircle others and to ensure that when I'm making decisions about what matters, that I always look to my heart.

And look to the lessons of love. Ultimately, those are the things that keep me grounded. This love family and

[00:34:24] Rita Burke: We're speaking with Michelle Forde, who is an educator and currently works at TMU. I'm really curious to know the difference between an Afrocentric curriculum and a regular curriculum. Could you talk to us briefly about that?

[00:34:50] Michelle Forde: Yes, it is a very good question. At the secondary school level. That is where I was steeped within the Afrocentric program, secondary school program, and there are a number of sites in TDSB that specialize in running an Afrocentric secondary school program. And what that means is you have students who specifically are moving through all of the Ontario ministry courses required for graduation.

So there are no courses that are removed, there are no courses that are altered in that way. The courses are everything from, your beginning grade nine suite of academic English, math, science. And then of course, as you progress through high school, you have specialties that you can focus on.

The Afrocentric program ensures that students, when they go through those standard Ontario ministry curriculum courses, that the. content is infused with Afrocentric, Afrocentrism learnings and teachings. And so an example of that might be if you're taking an English class, the ministry curriculum will require certain skills be taught.

Perhaps the essay is taught. Perhaps a news article report is taught. Different forms are taught within those courses and are required to be taught. And those students, of course, would ensure. That they have that foundation, but the way in which you teach those skills is up to the determination of a particular school site.

And what we found, we know this, is that when that determination is left broad, are we choosing Black centered, Black celebrated writers, authors, historians, are we centering that material in what we teach? Often, it becomes an extra or an add on. In the Afrocentric school program, it is the core of the material.

And I had the privilege of being able to design an interdisciplinary course, an Afrocentric leadership course, because I could see that there were leadership courses in the Ontario Ministry curriculum, but they had no connection to any kind of Afrocentric, Black focused content, and so we have our young people who are moving through leadership courses who never get to learn about Black leaders.

We never get to learn about the skills and the competencies in the innovation and the creativity in our community and so they may leave those courses questioning, what does that mean for me as a leader. And I didn't see that there was a course that existed. And I remember that beautiful quote "if there is a book that you want to read and it has not been written yet, you must write it."

[00:37:42] Rita Burke: Tony Morrison said that, isn't it? 

[00:37:46] Michelle Forde: Yes, I found myself writing curriculum and all of this happened in TDSB and because of that work in TDSB, because of some of the connections that come from developing curriculum and going out to build those community partnerships, one thing led to another and an opportunity came up at TMU and I found myself being called to that to see what more could be done to keep this work moving forward.

And my focus at TMU. Has always been on transitions and ensuring that there is a proper circle of care for black students who are transitioning from secondary to post secondary because we know that there are gaps. There are gaps, just naturally, because it's a big change for all students. But Black identifying students have additional systemic barriers thrust upon us that we need to find our way through.

And that's genuinely what called me to TNU. And it's a season. I I still have my heart and my purpose centered in public education. At the secondary level, but this is the season that I'm exploring, and I'll see where it takes me. 

[00:38:55] Rita Burke: Interesting, but also it must be very exciting and stimulating and inspiring to be able to touch all of the levels of education.

And you have to be able to do the dance to make the shifts. You have to be able to do the dance. So congratulations on that. I see a huge smile on your face and that's exactly what I'm going to be asking about now. What is something really simple that puts a smile on your face?

[00:39:26] Michelle Forde: Sharing delicious food with friends. The smile on my face yesterday came because a colleague came across campus and delivered a piece of black cake to me. And it was in the middle of my day, and I was not expecting it, and it was soaked and round, and I thought, can I eat this in my workplace? And I did.

[00:39:49] Rita Burke: Ooh, makes me hungry! I can see the smile.

[00:39:55] Michelle Forde: It was just important, I think, for us to know that we're here for one another. The work isn't easy, and the smallest active community can keep you going. It can really fortify you. And I don't think That there was this grand intention of, transforming my day by delivering a slice of black cake, but it really did it completely did!

And then I had other folks walk by and wonder, what's that? And they had no idea the magic that was in that tinfoil.

[00:40:26] Ellington Brown: So was it the cake or was it the rum that was the magic?

[00:40:31] Michelle Forde: Only I know the truth! 

[00:40:34] Ellington Brown: You talked a little bit about shifting and I know that you worked at Deloitte and AMX and Cisco and these are fortune 500 companies. These are major company and you got to coach a lot of their leaders. So what is the common leadership challenge you repeatedly see and how do you help them address it? 

[00:41:02] Michelle Forde: I am just going to rewind for a moment because I think a piece of And the rest of that trajectory is not mine to hold, even though it sounds exciting, but I haven't had those particular experiences.

Started in TDSB, continued through to publishing took a side stage to post secondary, where I did my master's, and then came back to TMU so I think that may be maybe that's around the corner for me next on my journey but in terms of leadership, absolutely, I've seen leadership In many different spaces in corporate spaces, like in the publishing industry in very dynamic spaces, like in the school boards and leadership at the school level versus leadership at the board level.

It has different elements to it and here at TMU, where there are multiple departments, Lever levels of leadership that we experience. Everything from the academic side and the Senate within the post-secondary system. And then of course the administrative side where all of the offices and the the work that happens through staff and the machinery of this big pillar of post-secondary discovery has the everyday operations side to it.

One thing that I know in common is that good leadership requires listening, active listening and you should Be mindful to think about the fact that you're there to facilitate change, and that doesn't necessarily mean that you're at the front of it, and that's a difficult lesson sometimes for, depending on where you're situated, for you to learn because I think systems reinforce that you need the one singular leader who drives change forward, but the reality is far more nuanced than that, and it's that you're listening, and perhaps encouraging from you being behind and that's something that's always been really important to me.

And my most exciting shift in leadership recently was exactly that, was celebrating the promotion of one of the teachers who I had just the privilege of being in sisterhood and community with in the Afrocentric school. We just recently learned that she was promoted to Vice Principal and knowing that journey happened together as we were there and I got to know her as a teacher.

She became a friend and is now in my circle and will go on to continue to build that growth for others. And to me, that's leadership, seeing others grow because you listen and see And the mentorship that comes from that, and just allowing the space for that to happen and supporting it along the way.

[00:43:48] Rita Burke: Seeing others grow and wanting to help them grow is quite I think, packed with humility and goodness for others. And there's no question that it brings us joy. And I think as a people, we need to consistently think of. the joy we share and the joy we receive. It's really important. And as you talked about your cake experience, it reminded me of that joy.

And so my last question to you, Michelle, forward with an E, is what if you had an opportunity to have a conversation with a group of aspiring educators, particularly black folks? What three important points would you want to share with them? 

[00:44:40] Michelle Forde: Ooh, that is an excellent question. So many things to share, but definitely first, remember you are not an island.

You will feel that way. You may even experience it in a moment in that way, depending physically on where you are, but remember that you are not an island. And in that memory, act on it and find your community. In that memory, be intentional about carving out time, whatever it looks like, whether you are sharing a laugh in a hallway, whether you're calling up someone in your community to make sure that you can share the moments, the joys, the laughter, the disappointments of a particular day.

To make sure that you act on centering yourself in community. One, you are not an island. Move in community always. It is your salvation and protection. It is the place where you belong. And remember to keep the door open for those who are coming up. Because, It's easy for us in our own journeys to get caught up in the difficulties of what's involved in the day to day, and we forget how far we've come, and we forget as we look ahead, because Black folks are always, we've got our eye on the horizon, we always have our eye looking up and on the horizon to remember.

That you, right now, are where someone else is striving to be. Don't forget that! And it's challenging because we hear those messages around us, right? We hear those messages that we're not enough, but you are. And someone else can benefit from what you have to share. And always remember that. And I would finish it off with the quote.

And again, it's Toni Morrison. And what does it say that these Toni Morrison quotes are all coming from that time in my own childhood where I was introduced to Toni Morrison by my black teacher. And here I am, feeling that resonance through every stage of my life, but she said, remember, "when you get those jobs for which you've been so brilliantly trained, that the purpose of freedom is to free someone else."

If you have a little bit of power, the purpose of that power is to make sure that you offer it up to someone else. That's what you've been called to do. And my apologies to our beautiful ancestor Toni Morrison, as I put a little bit of a little bit of a spin on that quote. But I think she would encourage it!

[00:47:11] Ellington Brown: I would agree. I think she would. And in fact, I think it's important that sometimes that we do expand on what's been said in the past in order to encompass the future. So I think that I don't think any of them would mind us doing that for the good of humankind. We have talked so many topics and one of the things that you brought to mind for me was the definition, true definition of as a leader, which is to provide space to allow individuals to grow.

Rita and I both know an individual who was is a leader and his way of saying it was that he led from behind. So by him leaving five behind that just allowed everyone else to expand and he was just in the back, of all of them making 

[00:48:16] Rita Burke: shepherding, 

[00:48:18] Ellington Brown: They were going in the right direction, but yet still they were growing. So I think that this conversation for me, and I think I can speak for Rita, it was absolutely wonderful. It was a fresh new perspective. On leadership and what that entails, and I just hope that in the future, we have an opportunity to talk to you again. I'm sure that you'll have tons of other things that you want to tell us. From self discovery to just new adventures themselves, and please don't be a stranger, and you're always welcome to return. Rita, do you have something you want to add to that? 

[00:49:03] Rita Burke: I just want to say a huge thank you to you for blessing our platform, for joining us on SpeakUP! International, and sharing a part of your exciting, inspiring story, and there's no question that I'm sure what you've told is going to enrich the lives, the minds of our listeners. And as our purpose is to have people tell their stories so that other generations, when they're doing their research, they can hear people telling their own stories.

It's not secondhand, it's not thirdhand. And so we really appreciate your adding to our archive today. Michelle Forde, thank you so much! 

[00:49:50] Michelle Forde: The pleasure is ours in community. My story is our story. I am here standing on the shoulders of giants as we do the ancestors in this space with us and people who every day make our lives beautiful and it is part of what you have created here that is including in that legacy, right?

Storytelling memory, laughter organic conversation all of the good things. So I thank you for that, and it has been a beautiful experience this is what put a smile on my face today! 

[00:50:25] Rita Burke: So I don't know if you realized, even though we haven't said it, but we use the Afrocentric approach without even talking about it on SpeakUP! International.

And we thank you for joining us! 

[00:50:38] Michelle Forde: Thank you very much! The pleasure will continue. This will continue! I know that we will have other conversations!

[00:50:45] Ellington Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International! If you wish to contact Ms. Michelle Forde. Please be prepared to submit your name, your email address and the reason why you wish to contact this, Michelle Forde spelled with an E . At info@speakuppodcasts.ca. Ms. Michelle Forde has other social media platforms you can use to connect to her that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms.

Are you interested in the opportunity to be interviewed and have your cause promoted by SpeakUP! International? We invite you to connect to us by sending a message that includes your name, company or organization name, the valuable service you offer to your community and your email address to info@speakuppodcast.ca. 

Worried about your confidence as an interviewee. Don't fret! SpeakUP! International can provide you with the necessary training so you shine during an interview! To receive training information and a 10% discount about the SpeakUP! International's Podcast Interviewee Trainee Program. Email us at info@speakuppodcast.ca. You can also reach us using Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. To connect to our podcasts, use Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. And search for SpeakUP! International. You can also find our podcast using our web address www.speakuppodcast.ca. Our logo has the woman with her finger pointing up mouth open, speaking UP! 

By joining Patreon, we can offer you an exclusive opportunity to become an integral part of the continued success of our podcast. Your financial support will enable us to cover the cost associated with producing high quality content. Such as equipment upgrades, hosting fees and professional editing services. As a member of our Patreon group, you will gain access to a wide range of exciting benefits. We are working on providing you early access to new episodes and the opportunity to suggest topics or guests for future episodes. Your contribution will not only help substain the continuity of the podcast. But also allow us to enhance the overall listening experience for all of our dedicated followers. 

Help us help you. https://www.patreon.com/speakupinternational 

At SpeakUP! International, we aim to inspire, to inform and to educate!