Speaker 1: 0:09

Welcome to Speak Up International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown. Today, our guest is Rochelle Romate and she is going to read an excerpt from her book why Black Skin Matters. Rochelle, the floor is yours.

Speaker 2: 0:32

First time my husband and I stepped into a millionaire's home, it was in 2009. My family and I got to see firsthand how exhilarating it may be to live in an immaculate house near a golf course. Now imagine for a moment that this millionaire found your number in the phone book and said I have $2 million to give away and I want to give it to you, but let's meet at the mall in 20 minutes so I can hand you the check. You would probably be so excited and immediately want to head in the direction of the mall. You then realize you were so happy about this offer that you forgot to ask which mall. You also realize that you don't even have the millionaire's phone number.

Speaker 2: 1:29

How will you get the money? You know the destination you're trying to get to, but you don't know how to get there, because there are so many malls to choose from. Simply knowing the destination in this situation is still not enough to get to the desired goal, which, in this case, is the money. And so, when I do work in the area of diversity, I know we all know the great destination to get there, but how do we get there?

Speaker 3: 2:03

there, but how do we get there? The voice you just heard is from Rochelle Ramathey. Now, yesterday we spoke with a woman from Edmonds, alberta, and the day before we spoke with a woman from South Africa. We are indeed Speak Up International. Our guest today is a catalyst for change in the corporate world. She merges her specialty in DEI and social work while sharing her story about burnout. About burnout, rochelle speaks about practical solutions to reignite employees' passion while preventing burnout. She has garnered respect and admiration globally for her work. Last but not least, she is an author and, as we say and speak of international, we like our guests to tell their own stories, and so I'm leaving the rest for Rochelle to tell. Welcome to Speak Up International, rochelle Ramathy.

Speaker 2: 3:19

Thank you, Thank you Rita, Thank you Elton, just even for having this platform so people can hear the voices of people that maybe may often be overlooked. So we're missing out on different perspectives if we don't hear different voices.

Speaker 1: 3:37

Thank you for the encouraging words. We really do appreciate them, and today we want to start with your personal and professional journey. So can you share your journey of resilience and determination that inspired your transition from academic struggles to earning a master's degree?

Speaker 2: 4:08

to earning a master's degree Absolutely so. I grew up in Edmonton, Alberta.

Speaker 2: 4:09

My parents are from Jamaica and Barbados, and we lived in predominantly white environments and what I noticed when I was going to school is that I was overlooked. My strengths were overlooked. I didn't see a lot of teachers that looked like me. There were not a lot of people who looked like me in the textbooks. So I actually didn't do well in school and I'm even surprised that I graduated from high school. I went through school with very poor grades, as poor as a D. So I wrote the book recently called From Ds to a Master's Degree, because something changed for me, particularly around my identity and also finally being seen.

Speaker 2: 4:51

I went to a historically Black university in Alabama. It's called Oakwood University. For the first time I had all Black professors. They had PhDs Dr Ashley, dr Frazier, dr Mavis Mitchell, dr Helen Fishel, so all people that look like me with degrees. And I remember when I was still failing in my bachelor's degree in social work. But Dr Frazier came to me one time when she saw very low grade. Came to me one time when she saw very low grade, but she also saw my potential. She said, rochelle, right now you're making Bs, but one day I see that you'll have a master's degree. And just her point of actually seeing me and seeing my potential. That made the difference and changed the trajectory of my life.

Speaker 2: 5:46

So I went on to get a bachelor's degree in social work, then a master's degree in social work and then went on to write three books. Because at that same university I had a professor named Dr Kesslin Braid and she said social workers can do anything. Kesslin Braid and she said social workers can do anything. And years later, when I said, dr Kesslin, can social workers write books as well? She said absolutely. And that opened the flood gates of where I am today on three books. Why my Black Skin Matters, which was my first book. Skin Matters, which was my first book.

Speaker 1: 6:23

Black Faces in White Spaces is my second book and my third, one that was just released, in September, from Dees to a master's degree. You are a prolific writer, obviously, and it's something that I think you enjoy doing, and I don't think it's a struggle for you to actually put your words to paper. And in doing so, how did your experiences with the workplace burnout shape your passion for supporting employee well-being in professional environments?

Speaker 2: 7:01

I think, that's a very good question.

Speaker 2: 7:03

I think that's a very good question. I want to also I want to expand on what burnout is so that your listeners can hear two aspects of burnout, because I did later on then example my strengths I'm a leader, I love action oriented things, I love speaking, I love writing. But one of the first jobs I had was actually in an office. You sit at a desk from nine to five. You're not interacting with people, it's just administrative work. So I actually experienced burnout because the job wasn't a good match for me. So that's the first aspect of burnout, the one that was the catalyst to the work that I do today.

Speaker 2: 7:59

I read this analogy. It's a lady, dr Mashlak. She actually leads in research as it relates to burnout and her book. She starts her book by saying that they used to do an experiment for those who were in a coal mine miners who used to work in coal mines. She said they noticed that a lot of the miners were passing away because of carbon monoxide in the coal mine. And then she said what they decided to do was bring canaries so the bird. They would bring them down into the coal mine only because canaries were able to detect carbon monoxide way in advance. So they saw if the canary collapsed in the coal mine, it would alert the miners leave the environment quickly because carbon monoxide has been detected. Now they stopped that project in 1990. They stopped researching and doing things of that nature.

Speaker 2: 9:00

But she writes in her book would we ever tell the canary if they were a human being? You know what you didn't do well in this environment because you weren't focused on work-life balance or you didn't go to enough yoga classes or you didn't do deep breathing or you didn't all these things that focus on the canary. But she said no, burnout also happens when you are in toxic environments. So the catalyst behind my work is because I was in a toxic environment. But the caveat with my work is that I was actually experiencing a unique type of burnout that only happens to people of color. It's called racial battle fatigue. After I was hospitalized based on experiencing the toxic environment that was really impacting employees of color. That is when I said something needs to change. So that day I fired my job and I hired myself to go around and speak about this issue and provide practical tools for organizations of how they can help workplaces become inclusive spaces so all employees can thrive.

Speaker 3: 10:23

Well, that was quite a dissertation on burnout and I thank you for it. But I want to go back to something that you said earlier, and I am really impressed and amazed that you were so honest and so transparent. You actually said that you were not good in school. A lot of people wouldn't be comfortable sharing that information with the public, so obviously you are so actualized that you're comfortable sharing that information. Now I want to move on to how do you explain the pressure Black women put on themselves? How do you explain that pressure that we put on ourselves?

Speaker 2: 11:07

Yeah. So I would say in two ways. One, we grew up with a narrative as Black women or Black girls, a narrative of we are strong Black women, and then also a narrative of, basically we can handle everything. And I want to say our parents are well-meaning. My mom is from Jamaica. She's very well-meaning, but I remember on Sundays she would wake us up in the morning. She's like get up and do something. So get up and work is basically what she was saying. It was almost like resting is unproductive. So that's the message that I got Continue to work, work.

Speaker 2: 11:54

Last of all, the message of this idea of an angry black woman. So sometimes you go into workplaces then and you say, whatever, I don't want to appear angry, whatever I do, I don't want to appear weak because I'm strong. So then we keep taking things and taking things and the reality is we have to. We had to be strong. That's why we were strong, but we don't necessarily have to be. Now we can really be honest about the workload is too difficult or I need to rest. Sometimes I do think it's a little difficult for Black women in the workplace because of those two things. And, last of all, we honestly are in workplaces where we're actually told we can't be ourselves, and I really want to highlight Black women versus Black men.

Speaker 2: 12:46

I know sometimes people say why focus on Black women? When I think about even the majority of breadwinners, they are Black women, meaning sometimes Black women are single parents, which means their income is very important. But since it's important, that means that some of us are. We are very good at playing the game in order to keep our salaries. So one of the games we have to play look at my hair today. If you are in an environment and you want to be promoted, the question is, would you be able to wear an Afro or your natural hair? The jury's out on that, but the reality is in America they have something called the Crown Act just because Black women were discriminated against just because of their hair. So I know, for Black women in the workplace, you are almost forced to be something other than yourself, especially if you want to get promoted in the work environment.

Speaker 3: 13:49

Is that what they call code switching?

Speaker 2: 13:52

Yes, absolutely. That's what they call code switching. Do what you need to do in this environment in order to survive. As a matter of fact, oprah Winfrey shares it about her story. When she began in the television industry. They told her you have to change your hair, it needs to be straight, and she talks about doing perm or relaxer and ruining her hair. So the reality is, black women have an additional pressure to even look a certain way in order to be deemed professional.

Speaker 1: 14:25

Michelle Obama had that same problem when she was in the White House and she basically wanted to wear braids. She wanted to display her Blackness, but they weren't having it, and so she straightened her hair, made sure that her daughter's hair was also straightened, and there were certain rules that she had to follow in order to be acceptable.

Speaker 2: 14:56

Exactly, which adds an extra burden. Elton, and the question is there any other racial group that even has to change their hair in order to survive work environments?

Speaker 1: 15:10

I can't think of any. And this brings me right into oh yeah, today I was listening to the news and I heard in the States that there's a bill that has been proposed to dismantle DEI because they feel that it provides minorities an unfair advantage. And so Ms Crockett, who is a Black congresswoman I think she's from Texas what does she give? The riot act? No one said anything. They were all dead silent because they're afraid of that woman, and they should. So how do you approach addressing systemic barriers to create inclusive workplace environments?

Speaker 2: 16:00

Yes, I'm glad you asked that question and I think it's important to look at it because I know people get a little emotional when we zoom in, but I want us to zoom out for a moment. So, one of the things my parents did when we grew up in Edmonton, alberta, they decided to become foster parents to three children with severe disabilities. But I want to focus our attention on Amanda for a moment. She was a white foster child. She could not walk, she could not talk and she could not use the bathroom and she couldn't see, which meant she was in a wheelchair. One particular day I went to the park with Amanda, strolling her in the wheelchair, and then sat at the park and realized there were children having fun and laughing and, just to let you know, amanda loved laughing as well. We knew how to like tap on her wheelchair and pretend we were hurt and we're like Amanda and she would laugh, so she loves laughing too.

Speaker 2: 17:07

But something happened at the park that really saddened me. There were children walking up the steps and sliding down a slide and laughing, and then I looked to my left and I looked at Amanda in the wheelchair and I thought to myself even if Amanda wanted to walk up those steps and slide down. She would not be able to. Why? Because the person who designed the a certain group of people in mind, which means they get to laugh more than we can laugh. Because they have an advantage, because these environments were created for them. So when we think about diversity, equity and inclusion, let's look at Amanda. She deserves to laugh as well. She deserves to be in that playground as well. So not just some people should be advantaged, all should thrive. So DEI is essentially saying, yeah, everyone in this environment is not thriving because it wasn't created for everyone. How can we recreate it so that all can thrive?

Speaker 3: 18:27

So what I heard you saying, rochelle, is that we all have a right to joy, yes, and being accommodated or included in the structures, and in the value and in the environment is very important for us, yes, so I want to hear you talk a little bit about the day to day tips we can embrace to prevent burnout. What are some of the little things we can embrace to prevent burnout? What are some of the little things we can do to prevent burnout?

Speaker 2: 19:03

I love that you said that. So I think, the practical things, because I really focus on practical things. One, if work is over at 4 30, should your phone be off and your emails or checking work emails? That shouldn't happen. There should be an element of boundaries that you institute. So I would say, not only turn off your phone physically from work, especially if you have a work phone but start thinking about things like digital detox. How many times are we just scrolling on our phone, scrolling and not necessarily doing anything for our wellness in terms of even physical wellness? I would also say take advantage of your vacation days. They exist for a reason and there was a research done in the States where there were millions of people that did not fully use their vacation every single year. That means that we're not taking advantage of the times where actually we need to come aside and rest and recharge.

Speaker 2: 20:07

I'd probably say two last things. We want to be in environments where there's a sense of community. We talk about self-care, but there's an important element of community care, especially if you are from cultures that are quite communal. I know my husband is from South Africa. They are absolutely communal. They actually have a word called Ubuntu. I am because you are. So the question is, what are you doing to experience joy in community? I think that is very important for burnout and I'd probably say, last of all, it's important to have maybe allies or mentors in the environment or in your profession, and probably therapists, someone that you can share your emotions or your heart with and they can help you problem solve or advance in your career if you'd like to advance. So I would probably say those four main things would be critical for preventing burnout.

Speaker 1: 21:14

I want to shift just a bit to your book Black Faces in White Spaces. I have it right here, yes, and I want to know how do you differentiate between mentorship and sponsorship and why is this distinction important?

Speaker 2: 21:39

That's an amazing question. I'm glad you said that Mentorship to me is guidance on your professional journey. So maybe if someone who looks like you. So example my mentor. She's a Black woman because I do a lot of public speaking. She's a motivational speaker. She's actually the former Miss USA 2016. Her name's Deshauna Barber, so she does things like okay, this is what you can consider when you're transitioning into the public speaking field, or can consider this. So that's someone who gives guidance, which is really important.

Speaker 2: 22:17

But sponsors are the ones that now open opportunities because of the power dynamic they have, so that you can be included in promotion. Now, for example, if you're in a workplace where you look at the leadership team and maybe 90% of them are white, that would mean your sponsor would probably have to be someone who's white, because she or he can speak about you in rooms that you would not have gotten to, and then they open ways for you to also get in the room. Sponsorship is very important because they open the room for you to get in, whereas mentorship it's just really guidance along your professional journey.

Speaker 3: 23:01

I like that. It's really important to have a mentor slash sponsor. Yes, it's an interesting story. I can't tell too much about it, but in an office that I visit for medical attention there's a young woman who works there and I said to my husband early this week I wish I could mentor her because she can do with some mentoring and she's Black and I could feel that she needs some mentoring because I'm not impressed with how she's doing what she does.

Speaker 3: 23:36

It would be interesting because that's my background and she could do with some help. I don't, but that's all I and she could do it to help.

Speaker 2: 23:42

I don't yes.

Speaker 3: 23:43

That's all I have to say about that. Now, you have worked offshore. You are Canadian, yes, and you have studied in the States.

Speaker 2: 23:56

Yes.

Speaker 3: 23:57

And you have had positions offshore.

Speaker 2: 23:59

Yes, and you have had positions offshore.

Speaker 3: 24:00

Yes, what would you say was your most amazing, fascinating, enjoyable, thrilling offshore assignment?

Speaker 2: 24:12

Yes, I think that's a good question. I remember when I moved to South Korea and I was promoted as a leader at an English language institute, I was a manager of 11 international teachers, some from South Africa, canada, america, new Zealand, australia, myanmar. So sometimes these were countries that I had never been to or had no clue about. But I remember one particular day I decided that all of us would go to a restaurant, a Korean restaurant, to get to know each other a little bit more, and one of the things I used to do back then I was like a show off. So I learned about four Korean words and I was like you don't want anyone to help me when I'm ordering, I'm just going to order based on the four Korean words that I know. So I remember saying and I said I pointed in the menu of what I wanted One particular Korean teacher said, hey, I can help you order.

Speaker 2: 25:12

I'm like, no, I got this. Anyways, after the meal came, all of us were eating our meal and then I kept eating. It tasted good, but something tasted rubbery, but I still kept eating and the Korean teacher then said to me I didn't know, you ate octopus. And I said octa, who? Octa, what. And she said yeah, that's why I wanted to order for you, because I saw that you chose octopus in your meal, so it was mixed with rice and all of these things. But I think the biggest thing when you say offshore, it's this idea that I recognize everyone actually has value and sometimes we are overlooking value. So when I think about that Korean teacher, she actually was very valuable but I overlooked it. So one of the great things I believe I experienced by managing so many diverse teachers is now started to create a lens in which I always look at people and say they have value.

Speaker 1: 26:17

Speaking of value, I'm going to ask one more question from out of this book. I don't want to give it away. And then our audience says, oh, we've already got the gist of it, so we don't need to buy it. And I want to say right now this is an excellent book. Yes, it leans towards women, but men can read this too and become educated. There is no reason why this book would not help men as well.

Speaker 2: 26:49

I love that.

Speaker 1: 26:51

So I want to know about work-life balance, self-care. You touched a little bit about that, but I would love if you could maybe talk just a little more about that, especially for Black women. My mom was a nurse. She had three boys. She was bringing them up without her husband and I could see the stress on her face when she comes home. It wasn't a thing where she could collapse, no, she had to fix dinner. So how is it possible to determine what is the best work-life balance and self-care for anyone?

Speaker 2: 27:37

Yeah, I think that is such a good question. I do think the debate is out on the concept of work-life balance. I believe some people are saying it's actually a myth. It remember one day I had to place this particular foster child in another home and the home was about one hour away and I finished at 11 pm and I said to myself I have a two-year-old and a three-year-old at home and I am trying to help a foster child go to a better home, but I'm not even in my home. So I said to myself this job is not going to work for my work-life priorities. My children are very young. At this stage I need to choose a career that helps me be home more.

Speaker 2: 28:44

So I think, if we start looking at priorities, what is your priority? I'd ask myself that first. And if we want to talk about balance, I would say always have something that you're doing in your spiritual life, your mind and your body. So spirit, mind, body so what are you doing in those areas? So perhaps body. You might say I'm going to the gym because that works for me. Or perhaps you say, no, I like taking walks. That works for me. Whatever works for you, there needs to be something that you do for your body, and then there needs to be doing something that you do for your mind. I think this is critical, especially post-pandemic.

Speaker 2: 29:28

A lot of people the research is saying are really dealing with mental health challenges. Of course because we had to be isolated, of course because we had to pivot quickly in terms of what our jobs look like. The question is, what are we doing proactively for our mental health? So I do believe mind has a lot to do with what we can do. Something as simple as journaling, like a gratitude journal, something as simple as they'd say, maybe deep breathing, people would say yoga, but anything that does something to your mind that makes it well. Maybe they'll talk about food that you eat. So I would say body, mind and, last of all, spirit. Choose what you want to do for your spirituality. Some may go to church, some may pray, some may go to meditation retreats. Whatever you do something for your spirit. So I would probably say work-life balance is really work-life priorities, but in all areas, whichever age and stage you are at in life, there should always be something you do for your body, your mind and your spirit.

Speaker 3: 30:39

Yes, you're quite right in terms of is there ever balance? But we must be aware. We must be aware and focus on those dimensions of our life. I like that explanation Now. Rochelle, your bio says that you bring more than words to the stage, and I'm beginning to feel that already Now. Please explain what else is embedded in your presentations, when you do a speech.

Speaker 2: 31:06

Yeah, so that's actually a good question. And a couple of years ago, when I was struggling with what I should do for my career, believe it or not, I tried to pivot to become a stand-up comedian. So I ended up getting a comedy coach. His name was Ryan. He started teaching things like the science behind a joke, when you do a punchline, how you tell a story and then he told me to practice, say, at the end of three sessions. I practiced and I did the routine that I practiced and he did not laugh. He didn't know how to say you're wasting your money, rochelle, maybe you should try a different career.

Speaker 2: 31:53

So when I think about what I bring to this stage or talks, it is actually this element of humor, especially because the topics we talk about are quite emotionally charged and, as you might see, based on some of the stories I tell, I also bring this element of vulnerability. I think sometimes we don't see sometimes Black women being as vulnerable. I don't know if we would have heard a Black woman say I was hospitalized. I don't know if we would have heard a Black woman say I was hospitalized. I don't know if we would hear a Black woman say this didn't work for me, so I had to leave the job. I don't know if we'd hear a Black woman say I was out trying to transport a foster youth to their home at 11 pm, yet my two-year-old and three-year-old was without their mom pm, yet my two-year-old and three-year-old was without their mom. So I do bring vulnerability, stories and humor and, last of all, practical strategies of how we can move from where we are to a better place.

Speaker 1: 32:53

Better place. I love that collection of words Better place. So how did? How do you adapt your speaking and consulting content? You may talk to someone at an organization, they tell you what their needs are and you create the session or presentation you're going to give. And then you get to the organization stage and you begin to give your presentation and they all look like they're deer caught in headlights. How do you find out in real time? Okay, what is it that you want?

Speaker 2: 33:36

Yes, exactly so it's what you rightfully said. Speak to the organizer, share a little bit of, so that they could share a little bit about the current challenges in the workplace. Share with me what they'd like the presentation to do. Also, share with me where they believe the employees are at this stage, some of the challenges that they're dealing with.

Speaker 2: 33:57

But I think, secondly and I think this was important because I was trained on the provincial level and on how to deliver equity, diversity and inclusion training and one fascinating exercise that we usually start with is this idea of what's in a name and what it essentially does is get people to turn to the person beside them, share their name and share if they know the origin of their name, like how did your parents name you, what they named you? So what we notice when we start that way one with an icebreaker or two, with an opportunity for us to have a level playing field because everyone has a name that almost gets people to be a little more relaxed in having these conversations. Yes, I would say a mixture of the person in the organization that brought me in for them to share a little bit more about the organization so I can tailor the presentation, but also when I present there are certain exercises that help people have some sort of level playing ground and also some sort of relief around the topic before we get into it.

Speaker 3: 35:08

I suspect that a person who works in DEI. You are always helping people to win, helping people to win, so could you share a story where you helped somebody to win, either professionally or personally?

Speaker 2: 35:31

please? That is a good question, I'd probably say, because maybe for the maybe 10 years. For 10 years I was private practice, meaning I was doing therapy support, and I noticed that there were a lot of Black women gravitating towards my therapy service. But then I noticed that a lot of them were actually bringing their children to me for therapy and it was because of what the children were experiencing in the workplace. And this is probably a recent win, because a lady that I counseled her daughter, a Black girl amazing, I was able to see her potential because I went to historically Black university where I saw the value of seeing potential in Black youth and also speaking it over their life, and I remember she was really sad, even suicidal, and some of the words and coping strategies I was able to give her. It was empowering for that moment.

Speaker 2: 36:30

But I never knew what happened to that little girl after the counseling session, because many times you plant seeds but you do not see the fruits of your labor. But I remember on LinkedIn, actually a couple of weeks ago, her mom private messaged me and said I'm so glad that you were able to counsel my daughter years ago. She's doing so well in education now and she's in university. I looked at the lady's profile to say who is that person? I don't even know who that is, but when I looked at her profile more I'm like that's the lady. So that is definitely a big win, especially because in this work sometimes you don't see the fruits of your labor. But I was able to hear about the fruits of my labor a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 1: 37:20

Wonderful, absolutely wonderful. What advice would you give individuals or organizations looking to create more inclusive and supportive environments?

Speaker 2: 37:34

Yes, that's a good question. I think sometimes we don't listen to the people who have challenges in the environment. So right now in Canada I'm not sure if you heard of something called a Black Class Action Lawsuit so a lot of federal employees have come together Black employees and they have started and initiated a lawsuit against the government and one of the things that they were talking about so many deplorable conditions that they'd have to work under. We talked about some of the microaggressions and biases that they had to experience, some people saying they started taking medication because of mental health challenges that happened as a result of the environment. But what was interesting is that they said for many years we actually shared with the workplace. This is what's happening to us.

Speaker 2: 38:28

I do think it's important to have some sort of feedback mechanism in the workplace and one that's anonymous, so we're not consequenced for telling our truth, and then we need to have. So they gave all of these different things that they need to have for the workplace to be better. I think probably two main things have accountability mechanisms in the workplace and have confidential feedback opportunities and listen to the feedback that you are given. People are speaking all the time, but the question is are you listening? And I do think it should be anonymous, because I do think people are consequenced and treated unfairly if they share their truth.

Speaker 3: 39:17

I hear you, I see you, I feel you.

Speaker 2: 39:20

There's no question that they need to listen and we all need to listen now before we wrap our wonderful conversation up that we're having with you, michelle, tell us a little bit about heartfelt leadership now I don't want to be focused on gender for a moment, but I do think that there's some value in this idea of intuition and gut feeling and emotion, and I do think sometimes the masculine way of doing leadership might be a little bit more.

Speaker 2: 40:01

It's not necessarily focused on the heart. It might be focused on, maybe, logic, it might be focused on what the numbers are saying, it might be focused on the economic bottom line. But I think heart work and heart leadership is about the recognition that we're working with people. And because we're working with people, then I think it's important to prioritize the things that connect us heart to heart. We have to remember that people are human beings and not human doings. So we need to focus on this aspect of being and when you leave from your heart, you're focused on the fact that we are beings and not doings on the fact that we are beings and not doings.

Speaker 1: 40:49

I like that, that saying. In fact, I am a toast master and I think I'm going to borrow that and use that as a theme for a upcoming presentation. I want to thank you so much, Rochelle, for stopping by and actually having a conversation which I found absolutely invigorating. We had the opportunity to talk a little bit about your personal and professional journey, your expertise in DEI and also your educational contributions. We got to touch on that just a little bit. We talked about well-being and professional development and the things that we can do in order to keep our minds and bodies healthy, and we also had an opportunity just to talk to you in general before the actual recorded conversation, and it's been delightful.

Speaker 1: 41:48

And the next book that you write, please let us know I can have more time to read it. And it was really hard for me not to ask you some more questions about this book because I'm reading it and as I'm reading it, I'm writing the questions down. And then when I looked up I went well, I can't ask all these questions because then no one will buy the book, but I enjoyed reading your book, Black Faces and White Spaces. I am going to get the other one that you mentioned about being able to get that degree that I think needs in order to pursue our endeavor. So, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for being with us this afternoon and we definitely want you to come back, Rita do you want to?

Speaker 1: 42:42

add to that, we definitely want you to come back, rita do you want to add to that?

Speaker 3: 42:44

I've had a delightful time listening to your presentation and I must say that I concur with everything that you said. And I haven't been able to get all of your books, but you know what I think. This is the time for me to get it. But let me ask a quick question. You are a presenter. How did you learn to public speak?

Speaker 2: 43:08

Yeah, you know what, as I mentioned, in terms of my strength, it has actually always been my strength and then, much like you, elton, I ended up going to Toastmasters as well. And then, of course, because of my profession, in terms of my first job being an English language leader in South Korea, then I had to learn to pronounce my words and be a little more simple with the way I speak, and so I would say all of those things put together has made me speak the way that I do. But I do want to also add, for anyone who wants a copy of my book, it is on Amazon, so you would just want to put my name Rochelle Ramate. When you put my name, then you'll be able to see all three books. And I'd love for you to follow me on social media On LinkedIn, it's Rochelle Ramate, instagram, it's Rochelle Ramate, instagram it's Rochelle Ramate, and also Facebook it's Rochelle Ramate, so I hope you'll be able to follow me. And, last of all, my website is wwwrochellespeaksinfo.

Speaker 1: 44:19

By the way, the three of us are Toastmasters. Oh nice, A little longer than I have. So we're in good company, we are. Thank you, thank you and easy's come back.

Speaker 2: 44:36

Yes, yes thank you so much, elton, thank you Rita for having me, and thank you so much for this platform for others to hear voices and experiences that we might not have heard.

Speaker 1: 45:06

Ramathe. Please be prepared to submit your name, your email address and the reason why you wish to contact Ms Rochelle Ramathe at wwwrochellespeaksinfo. Ms Rochelle Ramathe has other social media accounts you can use to connect to her that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms. Are you interested in the opportunity to be interviewed and have your cause promoted by Speak Up International? We invite you to connect to us by sending a message that includes your name, company or organization name, the valuable service you offer to your community, and your email address to info at speakuppodcastca. Worried about your confidence as an interviewee? Worried about your confidence as an interviewee? Don't fret. Speak Up International can provide you with the necessary training so you shine during an interview. To receive training information and a 10% discount about the Speak Up International's podcast interviewee trainee program, email us at info at speakuppodcastca. You can also reach us using Facebook, instagram, twitter and LinkedIn To connect to our podcast. Use Spotify or your favorite podcast platform and search for Speak Up International. You can also find our podcast using our web address, wwwspeakuppodcastcom. Our logo has the woman with her finger pointing up, mouth open, speaking up.

Speaker 1: 47:09

By joining Patreon, we can offer you an exclusive opportunity to become an integral part of the continued success of our podcast. Your financial support will enable us to cover the costs associated with producing high-quality content, such as equipment upgrades, housing fees and professional editing services. As a member of our Patreon group, you will gain access to a large range of exciting benefits. We are working on providing you early access to new episodes and the opportunity to suggest topics for guests and feature episodes. Your contribution will not only help sustain the continuity of the podcast, but also allow us to enhance the overall listening experience for all of our dedicated followers. Help us, help you. Wwwpatreoncom. Forward slash. Speak up international. At Speak Up International, we aim to inspire, to inform and to educate.