[00:00:00] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

[00:00:16] Rita Burke: On SpeakUP! International, we skip around the world to find individuals we define as community builders. Today, we're delighted to have Dr. Jonathan McRoy. Dr. McRoy is a distinguished executive with a background that encompasses military service. academic leadership and civic engagement. As vice president of administration at Goodwill Industries of Kansas, Dr. McRoy leads strategic efforts across human resources, IT, payroll, and operations excellence. His credentials include doctoral studies in business management, and organizational design. There's so much more I could say about Dr. McRoy, but as we say on SpeakUP! International, we prefer if our guests tell their stories.

So I welcome you to SpeakUP! International, Dr. Jonathan McRoy! 

[00:01:30] Jonathan McRoy: Excellent. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be on the show. A little bit about my background, originally from Miami, Florida, born and raised with roots spanning back to Jamaica. My mom's originally from Jamaica and immigrated to the United States in the 70s.

I've had the opportunity to live all over the world as a service member, which was really exciting. And now I have the opportunity to work to build my communities, mentor others really work to move positive initiatives forward. Not only in the veteran community, but also to look at minority communities.

How they're impacted with, um, just a lack of equity when it comes to just a plethora and a whole host of things. And my work is one that is reflective of values.

[00:02:33] Ellington Brown: So you've made a transition between the military to civilian leadership, so can you tell us some of the most valuable lessons you learned during the time in the Air Force? And how have you used those lessons to shape your current approach to leadership? 

[00:02:58] Jonathan McRoy: Sure. In the Air Force, we were very good at planning, and we had, there's always a plan A, a plan B, a plan C, and a plan D if we needed it. I think that in a fast paced business world, in organizations where there's a lot of change, it's very important to be able to pause in the space and get organized.

And I think that is something that is very challenging for folks, because. They can feel as though they're not making any progress and when I look at service members transitioning, it's all about planning initially planning on how you're going to expand your network. Planning on what type of experiences you'd like to have, maybe it's job shadowing experiences or finding an internship that gives you the opportunity to network show your skills to a potential employer, but also work through the kinks of transition.

It's not always easy for every service member. And early planning. And expanding the network are two great ways to really get that going. Now, it involves risk, right? I'm not going to say it's not risky, especially for those who may be introverts. And you're trying to have a service member that's an introvert at a networking event, right?

That may be a little challenging there. And so it's incumbent upon service members transitioning to the next phase of life to start planning early and finding mentors. 

[00:04:43] Rita Burke: As you were responding there, Dr. McRoy, I was trying to get my head around that concept of service members being introverts. Is that possible?

But I guess it is. I guess it is. Your bio says that you are a leader. Could you elaborate on that concept for us, please? Talk us about your leadership. 

[00:05:09] Jonathan McRoy: Sure. So for me, leadership is You know, I've adopted this definition of leadership as mobilizing people to make progress on difficult tasks.

Leadership, to me, is not a position. It's an activity. One exercises leadership, and I think oftentimes we confuse management and leadership and we use them interchangeably, the way I exercise leadership for progress is first understanding that we can't go from observing a challenge to forming an intervention without spending enough time and diagnosis.

We also can't mobilize people and exercise leadership if they don't know what's at stake. And what do I mean by that? If we're going to mobilize people and ask them to do things differently, if we're going to try to create buy in among stakeholders, That work is difficult work because we have to wrestle with different interpretations around the challenge that requires tough conversations that requires some vulnerability and those are skills that not every leader possesses.

And for me, I had to work on that being in the military. It was very. It was very easy to use rank and hierarchy to get things done, but when dealing with humans and trying to use influence and mobilize people, you have to dig deeper. You have to be able to have a conversation with them about hey, how's this change going to impact you? Is there a loss in this change for you? Is that what's keeping you stuck from getting on board? Oftentimes people are stuck because there's risk involved with getting on board. For example you could be working in a manufacturing environment and you could have created a process that improved efficiency by 40 percent at that time, given the business conditions.

All right, so you've been able to ride that train of fame and esteem for improving operations, 20 years down the road, that process may have to change given business conditions, but the champions of the current state, there's loss in it, there's loss because now they lose the comfort of having a process that they know, there's loss in that because now they're going to have to learn things aren't familiar.

And so when we look at. Leadership, to me, it's mobilizing people to make progress. And within that you have to have the skills to grapple with the nuances that are involved in getting people to move.

[00:08:12] Ellington Brown: I agree with you on what you're saying, because it's really important that individuals understand what's in it for them. They have to know why you want me to do certain, certain things. And then you talked a little bit about the fact of renewable policies because, yeah, it may have worked 20 years ago and cause a reduction in, I should say increasing the amount of productivity, but those things don't last forever.

 With your military background, how were you able to make strategic decisions at Goodwill Industries? In areas of H. R. and I. T.? 

[00:09:01] Jonathan McRoy: Sure. It's a very exciting time at our organization. We have a lot of new initiatives going on. And, we have an administrative division that has a very large charge at the at this moment.

And so, it's it goes back to the basics in the Air Force. We looked at task and, big task, we'd say how do you eat an elephant one piece at a time? So how do we break this monumental rock into small pebbles that we can manage? And so the Air Force really was really strong in project and program management and planning and execution.

And for me, a lot of moving our initiatives forward. It's really engaging with my team and making sure that we're really fleshing out our plans and timelines in a very detailed way. So we know exactly how we're moving projects forward, but also if we have any bottlenecks and, then we can adjust accordingly.

But the root of this all is in planning and engaging with stakeholders. Title alone is not enough to do that. I can't just say I'm the vice president and I'm in charge. So this is exactly what we're gonna do. That approach is wrong. We have to engage stakeholders. We have to engage teammates.

And we have to engage in planning, and that can be very difficult for some. 

[00:10:27] Rita Burke: I'm sure it could. As a matter of fact when you talked about the importance of buy in, it reminded me of a book that became very popular, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And that's one of the first things that he says in that book is, there needs to be buy in to get people on board.

For them to be effective. Now talk to us about your leadership philosophy. 

[00:10:55] Jonathan McRoy: Yeah. So when it comes to leadership, I, my leadership philosophy is one that is person centered. It revolves around values and meeting people where they are. I think when it comes to meeting people where they are it's challenging because it's easy for us to see the vision and we expect people to just get on board.

But it requires tough conversation. It requires work that we don't like to do. And so with having a philosophy of being person centered to mobilize people and really live leadership values. You have been successful at mobilizing stakeholders and creating that 3rd alternative that Franklin Covey likes to allude to in 7 habits.

And so it's really person centered at the core,

[00:12:01] Ellington Brown: You emphasized before we actually started this conversation about integrating advanced technology for operational excellence. So can you elaborate on some of the technologies you've implemented? 

[00:12:26] Jonathan McRoy: Sure. Sure. I've been in organizations and, this is, this includes the military where we've tried to automate in certain administrative areas.

A few have been bringing on service management and project management software integration. Which is, that's with any tech upgrade and technical change it's gonna require a lot of work with stakeholders. Building buy in, looking at demos, reconciling opinions, sometimes it requires us to bring people back to our purpose that we even started with, when we get these conversations going and the conversations go off of the rails.

I say that to say, yes, in a very challenging, I've been challenged to lead some tech transformations. Also in the people space just change management programs. I was with an organization where I worked on an organizational assessment of our human resources function and realized that we had project management capabilities scattered throughout different centers of excellences within HR, and we didn't drive fidelity to one system of project management. 

And so we found that the transformation process with among these departments were very choppy and not clear. And so what we did was we engaged work, redesign project and, looked at consolidating project management capabilities into one center of excellence to drive fidelity to one methodology for projects.

And we also were able to build into that some continuous improvement and organization. Development capabilities as well. And those are a couple of examples of projects that I've led in the change a space. 

[00:14:28] Rita Burke: sO I'm really curious. Why did you join the Air Force? 

[00:14:35] Jonathan McRoy: Yes. Growing up and, just really witnessing how hard my mother worked when she came to America, she took so much pride in coming to America, realizing that, hey, I have the opportunity to have a better life.

And I have an opportunity to work hard and live the American dream. And, I watched her do that. She was really my hero growing up looking at how hard she worked. But what I learned. During that time is that there are certain systems in place that give people the opportunity to find prosperity in America.

These are institutional systems that are based on our founding documents. And, these ideas of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And seeing how those opportunities provided a chance for my mom to pursue her dreams and goals and give her the ability to provide for me, I said, this idea is important.

This can't die. We can't lose this idea of, of freedom and liberty and equality and justice for all and not just a few. And those ideals are noble and worth fighting for. I think when Benjamin Franklin came out of the constitutional convention he was asked, what did you all give us?

And he said, a democracy, if you can keep it. And so these ideals were worth fighting for. And I thought to myself that. At the age of 17 that I made the decision to commit to that, and I had the support of my mom at the time, and I had her support throughout my career. aNd I made the decision to, to join the Air Force and be a part of that advancing our ideals across the globe.

[00:16:41] Ellington Brown: The world is constantly evolving, needless to say and how do you encourage adaptability when you are in leadership roles?

[00:16:53] Jonathan McRoy: I try to, create an understanding that nothing is static, right? The business world, our communities, our governments are ever changing. And we are a dynamic society. And along with that, we have to have that flexibility to be able to pivot and change. Right. And when you have that ability, you start to see that.

You become more agile and in a wave of change, you're able to maintain some type of control. I also try to talk about the phases of change on the change curve, there's a there's a curve of change and it has different emotions and you start with denial, right? And when You're in the denial phase.

Productivity drops. And so you go through all of the emotions until you get to commitment, which is on the other side of the curve. And so in getting people to understand that. And get on board with change. It's about really taking the time to explain these nuances in a way that's relevant to them. And so that they can understand how they're impacted, but they can also see the big picture.

[00:18:14] Rita Burke: Going into the Air Force is quite a huge decision for a young person to make. But it seems to me as if it has enriched your life in a very special way. You are a coach. You're an organizational leader. And that means that you give people advice. But I want to turn that on its head and to ask you, what would you say is the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

[00:18:44] Jonathan McRoy: Oh, the best piece of advice I was ever given. Was actually when I was coached after a big mistake that I made at work while I was in the Air Force, I had a supervisor who really. Took the time because this, I made an error at work. I was a very motivated airman. I took my career very seriously and I hated making mistakes and this one impacted other departments and so I just really took it very hard and my supervisor took me aside and told me, he said, You're going to have to be able to live with and manage through some of the bumps and bruises that come along with growth.

And there's nothing wrong with experiencing a few bumps and bruises if you're learning and growing in that process. I think that we, our stories resonate with people when people can see that. We're like them and we're not special. We fall. We fail. We need to be resilient. We are going to have to practice coping skills and how to look back and reflect on what we've learned after going through adversity.

And so it's in that. That I find the way to communicate that through. 

[00:20:16] Ellington Brown: I had a boss once that told me to look forward to failure, because if you never make a mistake, You've never, you're not going to learn anything, you've never learned anything because if you haven't failed, how can you possibly learn anything?

I think for me, that was the pillow on the bed that allowed me to go ahead and make mistakes and, shake them off and, figure out what did I do wrong and how can I make it better so I don't make the same mistake again and you move on. And I do know individuals who fall into that category, they're perfectionist and so they have problems moving forward because everything has to be perfect and no one is perfect actually. 

How do you create an environment that encourages innovation and empowers people that support you, maybe they are your employees to contribute to the organization's success? 

[00:21:22] Jonathan McRoy: I think in a position of authority, you have to create an environment where it's okay to fail. I think that, some organizations have environments of hyper accountability.

And that just stagnates innovation. And it, it creates an, a department, a team that's risk averse. And as I alluded to earlier with all of the planning that we engaged in the military, we have to plan in and think about All of the things that can go wrong. Project management, I've found is still a skill that's lacking in many organizations.

A lot of departments don't sit down and map out plans before going forward. And so I create the environment where it's safe to fail, right? And that we take calculated risks, right? And so if we've taken the time to do our due diligence, And we have a failure. Let's learn from that. Let's document that.

Let's share that knowledge. Let's understand it. And we reduce the chances that will happen again, right? But it's incumbent upon senior authorities within organizations to create that culture and ensure that it's communicated all the way down to the most tactical person at the most tactical level. This is how you catalyze the environment and make it rich, right?

For innovation to know that your teammates. Have your support to understand that no idea is a bad idea and it's a safe space to communicate a whole host of things because we're all on the same team trying to achieve the same goals. And so that's how I create that environment for that.

[00:23:13] Rita Burke: So important for leaders, particularly people who label themselves as transformational leaders, to create a safe place for everyone to function and to function in a very effective way. Now. In our lives as people, as human beings, particularly as people who are melanated, there are times when we've had to say enough.

Have you ever experienced a time when you had to say enough? 

[00:23:50] Jonathan McRoy: Yes, but I think it's very important for us to practice self awareness and understand our triggers, those things that kind of set us off and our vulnerabilities and really understand how they impact us. We also have to understand how our reactions drive consequences.

And while I've had many moments where I've said, Oh this is enough. I also have to think about what's my long term goal. What am I trying to achieve? What kind of progress am I trying to make? And will the actions that come on the tail end of my, that's enough. Be counterproductive.

[00:24:44] Ellington Brown: I think I can do this since I am a U. S. / Canadian and that is D. E. I. I know there are certain powers that if they are able to, they are going to dismantle that. They want to rip that out and it's never to be found again. So what do you see as the most significant challenge in this area, and how would you go about addressing DEI initiatives? 

[00:25:19] Jonathan McRoy: Yes. When I was in the Air Force, I had the opportunity to serve with diverse service members and. Every single one of them brought something special to the fight. We needed that. That was the core of our strength. I think when you think about America our strength over decades has been in our diversity.

I feel as though corporate sector leaders have the opportunity to really take the mantle here and model the benefit of these types of programs while the president has executive control of the executive branch of government and can affect D. E. I. and the executive branch. And, with some other mechanisms, I think that in the corporate sector there's an opportunity there to really advance this idea of D. E. I. and really make it part of organizational cultures. What I fear now is that, we've lost that momentum that we had, and we have a lot of threats to D. E. I. But we have to start asking ourselves. How do we have women, for example, who have served as four star generals and have flown several models of aircraft and spacecraft, yet there has been no female four star chief of staff?

Of the United States Air Force, for example, right? We have to ask ourselves that in these questions when we are evaluating talent at a senior level, it is incumbent upon this in your person to say, hey, why am I seeing a group of people that all look the same? Do we not have the talent on paper further down in the organization?

We have to start asking ourselves, why aren't corporate boards as diverse as, as diverse as, several layers down in there in the organization that they're board members of, these are the tough questions that make a lot of people uncomfortable, but we have to start becoming comfortable with discomfort.

We have to start paying attention to our legislators. We have to start monitoring what being put into policies. And it may be a blessing in disguise because I think it's going to drive more of us to be civically engaged. It's unfortunate that in our society today, when you look at voters and, sometimes even young voters they're not really understanding how our government works.

And so they're voting, but they don't understand that they're voting against their own interests. And I think to really get after this, I think it's going to be very incumbent on private sector leaders to take the mantle. If they do, no one's forcing them, but it is the it's the right thing to do because that talent is in the organization, right?

And then looking at how we can harness that and then marketing that broadcasting how that's created value.

[00:28:31] Rita Burke: We are having a very enlightening conversation with Mr Jonathan McRoy on SpeakUP! International, and as you're aware, on SpeakUP! International, we seek to inform, inspire, and educate. And I think his story is doing just that for us today. Now, tell us, Mr. McRoy, who or what would you say is responsible for the person that you are today?

[00:29:05] Jonathan McRoy: Well, my first I'd have to say, I have to give credit to God for really it's, my faith is played a big impact on my resiliency and my ability to have person centered leadership. I'd also say my mother is a big part of that, watching her work as hard as she has over her lifetime.

And her determination and her ability to bounce back was just so impactful for me. And Her modeling that for me has really made me successful in many areas. And I think she, she has a big role in that. And then, there's a couple of mentors that I've had over the years who have really been very transparent with me and have had tough conversations with me when I needed them.

And they have been very valuable. So I've had some mentors along the way and some significant people and, and along with my mom, who I'd say may be responsible.

[00:30:08] Ellington Brown: I'm going to take a leap here and say your mom was probably one of the more aggressive mentors. At least I can say that for my mom. She was, very direct. Let's just put it that way. 

[00:30:20] Jonathan McRoy: They can Jamaican parents. They mean they mean it hurts, but it hurts. It hurts, but they mean well.

[00:30:28] Ellington Brown: So you are a professor, you're a doctor. So what do you find most rewarding about your work in academia? And how do you balance that theoretical knowledge with practical experience? 

[00:30:47] Jonathan McRoy: Sure. My experience with students has been that they receive the theories and, They learn about, all of these researchers and all of these different models, but they've never seen it in practice.

And what's fun for me as a practitioner is filling in the gap for students, we may be talking about the topic can be HR, or it can be change management. These students will understand the the theory, but they'll be curious about how it looks in organizations.

How is this look when it's executed? What are some of the gaps? What are some of the more difficult pieces? And so being able to bring the experiences from the workplace. into the classroom and filling in the gap and really trying to connect the dots for students so that they get it.

That's where the passion is for me. That's the best part.

[00:31:45] Rita Burke: A classroom slash the military. How do you marry the two? 

[00:31:54] Jonathan McRoy: In the Air Force, we, education is extremely important. The Air Force until very recently was the largest and only, Community College that the Department of Defense had, right?

And I think the United States Navy has one now. But, the Community College of the Air Force is built into every service members career field that enlist and there's a career path and degree paths for for service members looking to advance their education. And so how do you balance it?

I guess I created a value for education very early. And, it was very much reinforced throughout my service in the Air Force, and I've seen the benefit of education. I've lived it, I've experienced it, and I've seen how it can change lives, and especially mine. And I find the time I try to balance it.

I try to live that value and break that down for people so that they really understand that education is really built into everything, right? It's an experience and that we're always growing. And we have to be open to that.

[00:33:10] Ellington Brown: You were, or are part of the Kansas African American Affairs Commission. Tell us a little bit about that please. 

[00:33:19] Jonathan McRoy: Yes. So the Kansas African American Affairs Commission is a commission of commissioners it's a, it falls under the executive branch in the state government. So it's we've, the, this is a department of advisors, if you will, we serve in an advisory capacity to the governor's office.

And we represent various congressional districts throughout our state. And so our charge is to be a link on issues that are impacting the black community in Kansas. And funneling that to the governor's office. To really see how we can get the governor's office to understand the challenge and maybe provide some resources or, maybe look at challenges as a strategic initiative.

And it's been very rewarding to serve on that commission and to have the opportunity to collaborate with other commissioners across the state. And so our work is good work. There's a lot of work yet left to do. But we've been doing some good work so far.

[00:34:30] Rita Burke: It's interesting that many of our guests, when we asked a question about a person. Who has influence you most will talk about their mothers, and I know that mothers will try to instill important values to help their children to navigate the real world. But I think one of the values I know one of the values that they teach as well is cooking.

One of the activities talk to us about your mother's food and what she's taught you and what you cook right now. Given that your mom is from Jamaica. 

[00:35:16] Jonathan McRoy: Yeah growing up, my favorite meal that my mom made for me was a traditional Jamaican breakfast. You have your ackee and saltfish and fried dumpling and, I loved that for breakfast.

And then for supper, my favorite meal is, rice and peas and brown stew chicken and plantain and those are two of my favorites that, my mom makes everything good, but those were two that she made that I just loved, but I could never, ever make them as good as she can.

I've attempted to it just never goes that way. But, living in different places and living around the world I like to cook different things. I don't have one specialty. Usually I try to be pretty efficient during the week, so I'll meal prep on the weekend, and what that looks like is a protein, a vegetable, and, maybe like a small carb.

And, it's like that for most of the week, and then on the weekends, I get adventurous and maybe try to throw together some new seasonings and, new proteins and vegetables and, do different things with stir fries or try different ways to mix proteins and vegetables together.

So I'm a big foodie. I have a very diversified palette. I don't have one dish that I make that is just my go to but, I'm, I have a variety of things that I make. And. But those were my two favorite Jamaican dishes growing up, and I can't duplicate them to the extent that mom can. I have mom make them for me when she comes to visit Kansas.

[00:36:51] Ellington Brown: I think, personally, I think it's rigged. Because I have recipes that my mom written down for me. And, a pinch of salt. And I'm like, what's a pinch? And she says, oh, just a pinch. I'm like Mom, my fingers are a little larger than yours.

What's a pinch? And yes, I know exactly what you mean. I don't care what you do. They can't, those recipes don't work. And I still think that they have the mom's hotline and they get on the phone with all the moms in the world and they laugh at the kids because they say, see, we didn't give them the recipe.

We're never going to give them the recipe. So it can be daunting. So you are , on the board of regents. What incentives have you contribute and to advanced leadership and management practices? 

[00:37:48] Jonathan McRoy: Yes I do have the fortune, the privilege of serving on the board for the Institute of Certified Professional Managers and we confer the certified manager credential among a few others.

The certified manager is, somewhat the equivalent to the Canadian Canada's Chartered Manager Certificate. And what I have the opportunity to do serving in that capacity is really find a way to link this great training that we have, this certificate in management practice with private sector organizations and governmental entities.

The certified manager credential is one that really proves competency and critical skills in the management field. And as someone who studied management and teaches management in this capacity, I have the opportunity to advance and think about ways to make our credential more relevant to employees and organizations, the and, one of the other things we've been doing in that vein also is we've been looking at. And talking about some new strategies and innovating when it comes to our certification programs. And so it's a very good certification. I went through it myself, and it was just very enlightening. I would encourage anyone to go through it, especially if you are a people leader, people manager very important skill to have

[00:39:28] Rita Burke: Before we bring. our conversation to an end. I would like for you to share with our audience. What is something that you really want to learn in the next year or so?

[00:39:46] Jonathan McRoy: I'd really like to learn how to play a brass instrument. I haven't narrowed it down if it's going to be the French Horn or the Trumpet or the Bugle or the Trombone, but I'm I really want to learn that. I kinda dipped my feet in it when I was, I dipped my foot in it when I was young. I, at the time, I just, I didn't find value in it, but I been coming back to it and saying, Hey, learning a brass instrument would be cool.

I like the sound of brass instruments. And that's one of the things I'd like to do, like to learn and grow in the next period of time and kind of focus in there.

[00:40:31] Ellington Brown: When you are prepared to toot your own horn, please let us know. And we'll give you 10 minutes to, entertain our audience. I think that would be great! 

[00:40:42] Jonathan McRoy: Excellent! 

[00:40:44] Ellington Brown: I really want to thank you for having this conversation with Rita and I. We covered so many topics, your transition from the military to civilian leadership, we discussed strategic leadership in corporate settings, your role as the president of Administration at Goodwills.

By the way, Goodwill growing up was our favorite store. We didn't have much money, so that was the go to store to pick up 

items. No beds!

[00:41:20] Jonathan McRoy: You buy a lot of things. A lot of people don't know this, but you know that the money that you spend in Goodwill retail stores goes back into mission programming.

So for us, we have English as a second language. We have high school diploma completion. We have apprenticeship programs with, in partnership with local colleges. And so all of that money that's generated in the retail goes into those kinds of programs. So it's rewarding. It's rewarding. 

[00:41:50] Ellington Brown: That's something I didn't know, and thank you for that, Doctor.

We talked a little bit about technology and the operational excellence. We even got a chance to talk about fostering culture of innovation. DEI was a topic that we discussed, a little uncomfortable, but I'm sure it needed to be discussed. If not, it will just fall, by the wayside into the sands of time and that conversation may never be had.

I want to thank you so much, Dr. Jonathan McRoy for your participation. Today with SpeakUP! International and I am looking forward to your next chapter, which I'm sure you've already told us it's going to be a brass instrument. So you'll have to come back in and tell us you're a success story. Rita, is there anything you want to add to that? 

[00:42:56] Rita Burke: It certainly was a delight to have this conversation with you, and I have no doubt that our listeners will be inspired, educated, and informed when they hear your story. Thank you so much. Thank you. 

[00:43:12] Jonathan McRoy: Thank you for having me.

[00:43:15] Ellington Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International! If you wish to contact Dr. Jonathan McRoy. Please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Mr. Jonathan Mcroy at Linkedin.com. Dr. Jonathan McRoy has other social media accounts that you can use to connect to him that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms. 

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