[00:00:00] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! SpeakUP! International is happy to have Carlos Anthony reading from his award winning novel Shades Of Black, Mr. Carlos Anthony, the stage is yours!

[00:00:29] Carlos Anthony: He enters the boy's bathroom, looking frantically for an empty stall. He finds the last door is open. He enters the stall, locks the door, and rolls up his sleeves to place the gun inside the toilet tank. accidentally breaking the chain. He puts his backpack over his shoulder and puts the lid back on the toilet.

He unlocks the doors and walks out of the stall. He washes his hands and exits. The police see Romero exit the bathroom with his backpack. They make eye contact before Romero breaks eye contact and walks back to class. Hey!, says a police officer trying to get Romero's attention. He ignores the police and continues to walk but increases his pace.

He feels anxious. They're probably calling another kid. The police officers increase their pace too. Romero quickly looks back. He sees them catching up. Shit! They're coming for me. He starts remembering images from the viral murder of George Floyd, where the police held his knee over his neck. He's scared.

He starts to run. They chase after him, tackle him to the ground, and pin his arms behind his back while putting their knees to the back of his neck. He screams loudly as he gasps for air. Is this how I'm going to die? He thinks, as the officer's knee is pushed against his neck. His classmates gather at the door with their cell phones out, recording the interaction.

One of the officers grabs his backpack, unzips it, and empties everything onto the floor, while the other moves his knee from his neck to his back. Romero begins coughing after finally being able to breathe. The The officer holding the backpack redirects the students in the hallway with their cameras out.

All right, keep it moving. There's nothing to see, says the officer. After thoroughly going through the backpack, there's no gun. The officers look up to his partner. The officer looks up to his partner. There's nothing in here. The officer picks up Romero's books and puts them back in the bag. The other officer stands and brings Romero up from the floor.

He hands him his backpack, then dusts off his uniform. Sorry kid, you shouldn't have run. You looked suspicious. At least you're innocent. No harm, no foul. Says the Officer Romero is shaking like a leaf, still processing. What happened? He holds his bags. He holds his bag and stands against the wall watching the officers continue the, to continue the search as if he hadn't just been traumatized.

He tries to zip the bag up, but sees the zipper is broken. He stands still, and then tears start to roll down his cheek. He wipes the tears from his eyes and looks around at all the students filming him and judging him. He continues to replay being tackled by the police in his mind. He loosens his collar and touches his neck, remembering what it felt like to be without air.

John walks down the hall with his crew. They point at Romero, who was wiping tears from his face. Look at this pussy crying, says John. And his friends join in, pointing and laughing at Romero before he runs out of the school.

[00:04:06] Rita Burke: The voice you were listening to and the excerpt you just heard belong to our guest today, Mr. Carlos Anthony. He is an award winning writer whose work explores the experiences of Black men in modern society. His debut novel, he was just reading, Shades of Black, follows a young Black teen navigating challenges in Toronto's Rexdale neighbourhood.

Anthony has also produced short films and a stage play. His upcoming stage play, The Price of Freedom tells the story of a fugitive slave and his courtroom battle in 18th century Canada. As we usually say on SpeakUP! International, we prefer if our guests tell most of their stories. And so today I welcome Carlos Anthony to tell us about his story.

Welcome to SpeakUP! International. 

[00:05:23] Carlos Anthony: Thank you guys so much for having me. 

[00:05:26] Ellington Brown: I will say that the excerpt that you read from your book was riveting. It was almost like, okay, don't stop now. I want to, I want to know, you know, what happened to the poor kid? Excellent, uh, reading by you!

 Tell us what do you remember about living in Rexdale? 

[00:05:54] Carlos Anthony: Man, um, it's interesting. So for me, there was this duality, because My parents and I, we lived in this, like, Italian suburban neighborhood that was right across the street from my high school, Monsignor Percy Johnson.

But when I went to St. Benedict's, which was the Catholic school, um, in the neighborhood, and that was my elementary school, it was predominantly white mostly Italians. There might have been, like, three black kids in the school. Um, and the way that I was kind of raised was like a little bit of an elitist mentality, and then also being in that kind of environment, Um, I felt like I was a little bit better than some other, like, black people, um, based on just like choices.

When I transitioned or graduated elementary school and I went over to Monsignor Percy Johnson, that's when I actually learned what the Rexdale community was like. It was different from the Italian Rexdale community or the Asians because there was quite a bit of like Filipinos and Vietnamese that were in the community.

So when I went to Monsignor Percy Johnson, that's when I learned. What the black community in Rexdale was like and there was, this was predominantly, um, the Caribbean, mostly like the Jamaicans. And when I was going back in school, there was a division between blacks. So for one thing, there was like Africans and then we had like Caribbeans and there was the distance between them.

Um, very rarely would they like mingle. There were a lot of like jokes at each other's expense based on like cultural, like differences. Um, so for me as a young kid, it was, it was very interesting navigating. And I think the first girl that I dated who was black, who was from like the Rexdale community lived in Jamestown and in dating her, there were times that I had visited Jamestown.

And one thing that I remember very vividly after. Attending her, her place with a friend, um, on our way back was, you know, we were, um, we were approached by two young men, um, who must not have been too much older, I think at the time, I must have been maybe like 15 or 16, and, um, and then these guys, they might have been, you know, maybe 18 or 19, they couldn't have been too much older, but they rolled up on us with guns, And they patted us down, searching to see if we had any, like, money or anything.

Um, and at this time, this was new for me, because I hadn't had this experience. I had, I was pretty sheltered. You know what I mean? So, um, when I had this experience, Um, it really kind of, like, opened my eyes to what things were going to be like, and then when I went to Johnson, we had a lot of, like, we had a lot of people from Rexdale that were, like, frips, and then we had kids from, like, the Jane strip that came to our school that were, like, bloods, and there was a whole, there was a lot of tension, so I was trying to navigate this.

And it was just a crazy, crazy time, but being in Rexdale, um, really allowed me to, like, grow up because I had to for survival. And in this book, Shades of Black, where I read my excerpt, it's really about me trying to, like, You know, redefine what it means to actually be black and fit in with this crowd. And then how do I go ahead and, you know, get through these like four years of high school without joining a gang, um, without being like assaulted, um, or being, being involved in any kind of like criminal activity.

[00:09:56] Rita Burke: So the word is navigating, isn't it? Like you said, it is navigating. But you, you said something, and you said it with such calm and poise. You said, they rolled up on us with guns. Were you just as calm when that happened? What did you feel? 

[00:10:15] Carlos Anthony: Oh man, I was so scared. I thought I was going to die. And the thing is, that was the first time.

That that has happened to me, but, like, there have been other times that I've been in, like, other communities in the GTA, and I've had, like, a machine gun at my, like, you know what I mean? Like, at my face. Um, so, it's, it's just, it's sad, it's unfortunate, it's actually kind of crazy because if you look at the media, if you watch the news, they're, they highlight it on the news a little bit more, but, like, when it comes to, like, scripted TV shows, That are, like, dramatized for entertainment.

There isn't anything about Black Canadian, like, crime stories. So it was important for me to kind of show that, you know, this kind of stuff does happen in Toronto. And being from Rexdale and with all the hype that Scarborough has, I just thought it was super important to go ahead and show, you know, the other side, the west side of what Toronto is like.

[00:11:15] Ellington Brown: You mentioned the word sheltered, and I can truly relate to that. I lived in Philadelphia, and I lived in a part of Philadelphia that was very much like Rexall. So to listen to you tell that portion of the story, I could instantly relate to, um, and I found it to be quite honest, to be triggering. So in that, in your shades of black book, you know, your themes like fatherhood and addiction, you know, all of that's kind of like in there.

And what was your personal experiences that you were able to apply to the character and storylines in the novel? 

[00:12:11] Carlos Anthony: Yeah, so this novel is based Um, it is influenced by, like, my life growing up, um, and it's interesting because as I was kinda, like, learning, and I'm still kinda learning, like, what my voice and the messaging and what it is that I wanna say to people and how I wanna, like, connect with people, but one thing for me is, like, generational curses, and I didn't understand what generational curses were or, like, patterns, but what I had realized A lot of the choices that I was making as an adult, um, very bad choices, very toxic choices, ways to like, kind of like cope with anxiety and the way that I was like feeling with the lack of control.

I saw that my stepfather also did that. Um, so as I was writing this book, um, cause this book is actually, it's just, it's a small part of a much very bigger, like big story. I started analyzing myself, understanding, like, you know, where did I learn this behavior from, where did I see it, where did I observe it?

And that's when I started, you know, talking about the Troy character, who is, you know, very similar to my stepfather, like, Roy. Um, it's interesting because right now, my dad's actually going through, my stepdad's going through, like, dementia and, like, Alzheimer's. So, um, he actually doesn't know what year it is or, like, how old he is, right?

So, there have been, like, moments where he's, like, revealing things, um, you know, to, you know, my mother, to myself, that he, you know, denied in his past. So now we're kind of getting, like, the closure and, um, and yeah, and that kind of just, you know, Again, just like help with the building of the story and the characters.

[00:14:09] Rita Burke: Can't be easy for him, can't be easy for your family. But your work explores the experiences of Black men in modern society. Talk to us about some of those experiences. I know you've alluded a little bit and touched here and touched there. Talk to us more about those experiences, please. 

[00:14:29] Carlos Anthony: Yeah, so as far as like the things that we're ashamed about, I feel like men are ashamed, at least black men, at least black men that I know, I feel like they're ashamed to talk about any mistakes that they've ever made.

So whether it might be, um, misogynistic mistakes, um, where they have, you know, You know, um, they might not have been kind to women. They might have manipulated women. They might have been like womanizers. I think those are things. Those are shameful things that men would be afraid to go ahead and talk about that.

I'm not afraid to talk about because for me, I'm like, I'd rather confront, um, my bad choices, um, and kind of show people what I've learned from them in hopes that they can go ahead and learn from them as well. Um, other stories. a sexual assault. Um, men who have been sexually assaulted, they don't really talk about it because you're automatically looked at as like weak or, um, you know, weak or vulnerable, um, or even like feminine or even your, your question of your sexuality comes into play.

Um, so these are some of the themes that for me are important because my overall goal as an artist It's to help people feel less alone and to liberate them so that they can go ahead and feel more comfortable telling their own stories.

[00:16:00] Rita Burke: Mr. Burke, perhaps this is a good time for you to ask your question of Mr. Antony because you worked in schools much like the one he describes in his book. Mr. Burke was a guidance counselor in Scarborough, and so take your opportunity now, Mr. Burke, to ask that question.

[00:16:18] Samuel Burke: I just, I'm just wondering where do I start, but I'm going to try to make it brief, and I'm going to summarize what I've heard up to this point. And then try to squeeze a question in there, if that will be alright with you. 

[00:16:39] Carlos Anthony: Yeah. 

[00:16:41] Samuel Burke: First of all, congratulations on the book. 

[00:16:45] Carlos Anthony: Thank you. 

[00:16:46] Samuel Burke: I think the opening reading was very powerful.

Thank you. Just to hear it, especially in the author's own voice. I'm very interested in the title, Shades of Black, but with your opening statements, it's very clear where the shades of black come from. But also There's another book, which is a kid's book, which is called Shades of Black. We've sold many, many copies of that over the years, so I think that might have been one of the things that grabbed my attention when I first saw the title to your book.

And then, sorry, go ahead. 

[00:17:30] Carlos Anthony: Oh, no, I was just going to say, if I could just, uh, just a couple things that I wanted to talk about with you bringing up the title of the book, so Shades of Black. So, originally I wanted the title of the book to be all shades, um, all shades of scared, um, because we have all these people that are just trying to survive, right, in their own way.

Whether it's Kalinda, who might be looking at look being looked as an antagonist, or her brother Keith, everyone in this book is trying to survive. Not just high school, but just, like, life in Rexdale, which I feel like everyone can go ahead and relate to. So that's originally what I wanted it to be called was all shades of scared and then the publisher They actually wanted to use one of the chapters which was like regular black and I was like absolutely not because what is regular black, right?

So, um so the medium was shades of black between all shades of scared and regular black and that's How we came up with the title for the book. 

[00:18:40] Samuel Burke: Right, right. Thank you for that. Now, just to go back to your opening, almost right out the gate, when you described the bathroom scene, brought something to my memory.

And that is, I believe it's from the godfather, Martin Brando, when he went into the bathroom and hid the gun in the, in the, well in those days they had a cistern where you would pull the chain out And that's where he hit the gun in order to carry out the assassination of or the killing of the individual.

So that again, you know, it's the imagery, you know, throughout, even your brief reading that has come to me. And then it takes me to, uh, let me say my growing up, though it wasn't quite Rexdale, but. I can relate to some of the things that you were, you, you know, that, that you, that you, you've written about.

Now, in my days, it wasn't guns, but it was knives. Mmm. I grew up in, uh, in, in Bristol, in the UK. Mmm. Although I wasn't in that type of, of neighborhood, if I will, but that's where we went as youngsters for support, and camaraderie and all of that. So again, what you've read and how you've described the book, you know, I, I can just see all the different images playing around.

And indeed, you know, you're talking about the guns. And as I said, it wasn't guns, but it was knives and they were actual incidents. If you, you know, of knives, you talk about the different communities. And just to go back to what Rita mentioned, about being a guidance counselor because the schools that I was fortunate to be a part of, part of the education system, I became fully aware of many of these, shall we say, behaviors, if you will, from some of my previous students.

And even recent times in, in being In being in contact with some of them, and as we reminisce, and they give their, their thoughts about some of those who have, I would say, fell by the wayside, if you will, that again, the book is so powerful. So, the question that I have for you at this point, and it may be a bit early to ask the question, is that, having described and having experienced all of this, what would you say to myself, or those who are in that situation at this time?

In terms of guidance counselors, teachers, or those who are interacting with youngsters who are still going through some of these experiences? Challenges, if you will. What would you, I'm actually, what would you say to us? What, what, what, what could you offer us for those work in that situation already? 

[00:22:23] Carlos Anthony: So, for the youngsters that are listening to this, um, what I would say is.

You guys can make a change. When I was in high school, because of how violent things were, um, I realized that we were just, we were all idle and we were bored and we didn't have any, we didn't have anything to do. We were too young to, you know, get jobs or, you know, it was hard to get jobs, um, and we just needed something to do.

So you don't have to wait for someone to go ahead and create something that you like to go ahead and do. You can go ahead and create it yourself. And what about what I mean by that? It could be like clubs. So I had created what they called March Madness. Um, and it was basically just like a basketball tournament that we had, um, and that was just a way for, you know, um, the youth that enjoyed basketball that happened to be, you know, involved in some of the criminal activity and some of the violence at the school.

Um, they were idle because they were playing basketball. Right. Unfortunately, it was only for a period of time. Um, but we were able to go ahead and connect with teachers and be like, Hey, Would you mind supporting it? We just need someone who's able to just kind of like supervise while we, you know, do a tournament for, you know, two hours a day for the next however many, you know what I mean?

Days. Um, but I think that would be very helpful as far as like schools, guidance counselors, superintendents, I think having more, uh, like, I know we have the, the Black Excellence Center for students. I think it's great to have them. I think we need more programming with like our black youth. I think they need, um, people that they can like, like relate to.

They need to see, um, they need to see what's possible in different careers. Because when I was in school, it was like, you're going to be a basketball player, you're going to work in like arts and entertainment at the highest level. Um, or you were going to be an athlete, there was no like doctor or lawyer.

Or anything like that. And just being at schools and doing presentations and workshops, I find that high school students, they're not necessarily sure 100 percent of what they want to do with their life outside of school, but they know that they want to make money. They want to learn how to make a lot of money.

Right. So I feel like if there is just more diversity and representation of people that look like them that can show them that, hey, Okay. These are ways that you can go ahead and make money. If there's a way for there to be some sort of like mentorship program where, you know, you know, some of these kids can be partnered with people who, you know, are like minded, um, as far as like their scope or their interests and just be able to kind of like guide them and direct them.

I think that could be very, very helpful. Um, I heard, and I don't know how true this is, but I heard that, um, the GTA, so like, is, I heard the GTA is investing like 16 billion in renovating their schools. I think it would be great if, you know, there was a way for them to, um, use some of that money to maybe work with, like, black authors.

When I went to school, there was like, you know, a lot of Shakespeare stuff. So it's like Rome, like Romeo and Juliet. Um, there was the modern day version of Romeo and Juliet, West Side Story, um, which I guess was a little bit more diverse. But again, it's just, if there's more diversity and if people who look like us, if we're able to like connect with the stories, just like Shades of Black, which is part of the reason why I think it's having, you know, global success, then I think it'll be, it'll be easier for us to start to see some change with our youth.

[00:26:14] Ellington Brown: I think that globally, I can understand why this book is so relatable, and there were two words that you used. One was sheltered, which I truly understood that because where we live, we were not allowed to go outside and play. We were not. The only time we went out was to go to, uh, church and to school. And the rest of the time we were indoors because, well, they were popping off kids, you know, like they were popcorn.

My mother a single mom, was not going to have that. So we were inside. So I truly understood when you used the word. Sheltered and the second word was shame and I think in some ways those two can go together because I know. Men back then and probably now they didn't have much in the way of self esteem.

What were they doing? I mean, they didn't have great jobs. They didn't have a great education so they had to try to figure a way to build this facade in order to Be looked up to so I truly understand When you use that, when you use that word shame, that was another word that really, again, I found to be triggering, which brings me to your, uh, one of your short films, which was named Triggered.

And I think that that, from what I gathered, it would, it delved into these complex, Topics, which you kind of brought up earlier, which was like masculinity and, uh, systemic injustice. So, how do you use that energy to explore these themes while doing, uh, future filmmaking? 

[00:28:05] Carlos Anthony: Mm. Man, it's um I tried to I'm trying to do a better job of like balancing because I'm a method writer.

So whenever I'm writing, I'm very emotional. I'm crying. I'm angry. I'm laughing. I'm feeling all these different emotions as I'm like writing. Um, so now I'm just at a point where I just do my best to, you know, if I'm working on like right now, the month of October, um, since we're doing all this like press for like Nuit Blanche.

I'm going to start, I have to do another draft to Shades of Black Two, which is part of the reason why it got pushed, um, this year. So I did like 12 drafts. Um, my editor was happy with it. Um, he felt that it was too much of like a love story was the feedback that I got. And I felt that, um, it was like my version of, um, West Side Story, but keeping it in Rexdale.

Um, and I, I really feel like it's a masterpiece, but. Um, he basically had just suggested that he just wanted a little bit more on the antagonist's, uh, perspective, so that is what I'm going to be working on, um, while I'm on tour, I'm going to be working on that, and then when I'm done that, I'm also going to be working on doing some edits for the second draft of, um, The Price of Freedom, um, because, you know, That's going to be going in like full swing as far as like promo after October 14th, because that's when they're done.

The theater production company is going to be done with rent. So, um, I do have to give myself, you know, definitely space, but the thing is for me as a writer, I have a very quick turnaround time. So when I wrote like the first draft of Shades of Black, um, I had the whole manuscript done in like two weeks.

Right? It was like 34, 000 words. Um, and I had to do like cuts and I think this draft is at like 28, 000. The second book, Um, I've done 12 drafts and every time I do a draft, it roughly takes me, you know, a week or two to kind of like finalize everything. So my turnaround time is really good. And then I usually take like a, a day or so to kind of like get all of the like, you know, feelings and, and energy out.

Um, because transitioning from like team prime to like, You know, a freedom, you know, a freedom seeker experience. It's, it's different, but because of the fact that I'm like a genre fiction thriller writer, both stories have that like suspense and thrilling aspect of it because I like to entertain people as I'm educating them, um, as they're reading my work or experiencing my work.

[00:30:59] Rita Burke: Talk about suspense. I read the book, as Elton said, there were times when. I just wanted to put it away because I could not identify with some of the stuff that was going on in the book. And then there were times where I needed to read to see what is going to happen next. And that takes me to my next question.

Which is that your chapter titles are intriguing. I find them grabbing and intriguing. And I want you to talk about chapter six and the title is I can't go to jail. Could you imagine this is a book written about young people in high school and the thought that's going through this child's head is I can't go to jail.

So talk to us about chapter six, please. 

[00:31:50] Carlos Anthony: So I can't go to jail where that comes from. Um, when I was younger, um, my parents would use calling the police. As another form of kind of bringing me in line. It was like a threat that they used, right? And unfortunately, um, there was a time where there was a TV show called Oz that was on TV.

And I was too young to watch it, but for whatever reason, it was on TV and I was, I think I might, I might have been like going from one place to another place to go to the bathroom. Maybe my bedroom to the bathroom, maybe like the living room was there and the TV was on, but it was on and during the time that it was on, um, I had seen a man being raped in prison and it traumatized me because I just, that for me, it was like, this is what happens in prison.

So growing up and then always having my parents saying, Hey. You go ahead and you, you do this, we're gonna go ahead and call the police, and then having that, you know what I mean? So, that's what, um, I can't go to jail, and when I wrote this chapter, there were stuff that I wrote that hinted to my childhood trauma, but they told me to take it out because they, they said that it was, they were afraid that it might get me in trouble because of it being, like, homophobic.

The thing is, for me, when they said that, which I totally understand, I was just like, could we talk about where this phobia even comes from? Because if you understood the term buck breaking, and historically what that did to our community, then you would understand where this fear comes from. You know what I mean?

And if you understand the people because my editor, I love him and he's super supportive, but at the end of the day, he's still white. So I still need to go ahead and kind of, like, educate him on things because there's things that he may not know where he just, he doesn't have that empathy or that understanding.

It just doesn't hit the same, you know what I mean? And I'm just happy that, you know, God has given me a gift where I'm able to empathize with people and You know, draw from an experience that they may have that'll help them connect. You know what I mean? And at the end of the day like rape is rape, right when you're forcing Um someone to do something that they don't want to do or you're forcing something on someone regardless.

It's right Um, so that's where this whole like I can't go to jail chapter kind of came from But me, you know, obviously being a lot more politically incorrect and, you know, more censored and more appropriate for kids within my best of the abilities, but hoping that, like, the subtext. That people will be able to read it and understand that, 

[00:34:48] Ellington Brown: I came from a single, single parent home. And that seemed to be the theme. If I got too rambunctious. That was the line that came out. You go do that. I'm calling the police. If you, you know, if you stay out too late, I'm calling the police to have them look for you.

If I find out that you're doing drugs, I'm calling the police and they're going to carry you away. So, you know, in some ways, you know, be, you know, you're traumatized by, you know, this whole thing about, you know, going, you know, winding up at the police station and you know, mother or father or whoever is not going to come and get you.

I'm going to jump now, and I want to talk about the price of freedom, and you go back to the 18th century Canada, and you're talking about future slaves. Expand on that, please. 

[00:35:50] Carlos Anthony: Yeah, so, um, what happened was, um, so Act Windsor, which is a theater production company, they reached out to me and, um, the reason why they reached out to me was, they were told about me as an artist, um, from this incredible historian, um, and human being, Irene Ruth uh, Davis.

Um, who, who lives out here in Windsor, so she had referred me to, to them, um, because next year, um, the Amherstburg Freedom Museum is celebrating their 50th anniversary. So they wanted to kind of have a project that would, um, celebrate that. So they reached out to me to go ahead and to, you know, write a theatre play.

So, um, I told them no at first because I've never written a theatre play. Um, I write screenplays and I write novels. Um, but then, They were like, you know what, just come to the museum and, and like, check it out and, you know, if you're inspired, you know, then, you know, we'll go from there. So, I went to the museum, um, and I was inspired, but there wasn't one particular story that, like, stood out to me until I watched this video.

Um, and in the video, I learned, um, there's like a little excerpt about, like, John Anderson. And John Anderson was this, um, enslaved man that Um, he, he sought refuge in Canada after murdering a slave owner and bounty hunter in self defense. Um, when he came to Canada, After being here for several years, um, they arrested him and then they wanted to extradite him back to the States so that they can hang him.

They wanted to make an example out of it, right? Because they don't like when enslaved people go ahead and stand up for themselves and God forbid that they go ahead and, you know, You know, kill someone after so many of them being, you know, killed and dismantled. But that's a whole other conversation. So, um, he goes to prison.

Um, and then while he's in prison, he's awaiting trial, he goes through trial, he loses the first case. And then after he gets appealed, and not only does it get appealed, and he's free, but it changes our laws. So the laws in Canada, as far as our relationship to the British, Um, and their influence on our governance that has changed from, from this story, as well as the way that we deal with the Americans, has also changed from this story.

Um, so I thought it was super important, and as like a black Canadian, this stuff should be in our history books, and it isn't. So, my mission is to, you know, with this play, Um, it's going to be in Windsor, but I do want to go ahead and, you know, tour it across Canada. We have a 10 city tour set up right now.

I'm hoping to expand it because I just think that, you know, this part of Canadian history and its impact, um, is very important. And I think that everybody should be learning about it. And I just think that, unfortunately, That, um, the curriculum for Black Canadian history is terrible. Um, I don't feel like, um, the school board has put in enough effort.

And instead of me kind of complaining and, you know, wanting for them to make a change, I'm doing my part by going ahead and contributing to the curriculum, by going ahead and creating this theatre play and, you know, who knows? Maybe I'll adapt it into a novel and, you know, publish it like Dundurn Press.

Who knows? Who knows? 

[00:39:28] Rita Burke: Way to go. There's a problem? You try to fix it. As a matter of fact, there's something that I often say. Our ancestors didn't search or look for excuses or make excuses. They looked for opportunities. So, to me, that's what you have done and that's what you are doing. So, would you say there was a time in your life When you had to say enough.

[00:39:55] Carlos Anthony: Hmm.

Yeah, I would probably say, I'd probably say maybe, I still have trouble with establishing boundaries or enforcing boundaries. And I was in a really toxic environment, um, at a previous employer. I was there for about five years. It was emotionally and psychologically abusive. I'm talking about, I went to work where people had the confederate flag.

This is in Brampton, Ontario. Tattooed around their arms, they had a sleeve of it. Um, they had like stickers of it, you know, on their lockers. Um, like, they were proud to be ignorant and racist. And these were Canadians who didn't even really understand what the confederate flag even, like, really means. Um, but that's just a type of ignorance that we had, um, or we still have in Brampton, Ontario.

And just being in that toxic environment, um, because I had to provide for my family, I didn't say enough fast enough. I tolerated the abuse because I was trying to provide for my family. So as soon as I was able to, you know, get out of that situation, that's when I decided that I wanted to be a full time artist.

And that's when I said enough enough to allow other people to tell me what my value is enough to Um, being forced to deal with people who are prejudiced towards me just because of the color of my skin or, um, the way that I wear my hair, um, or my religious beliefs. So this is when I started being able to say enough, but as a teenager, um, I never said enough enough.

And I did allow, um, a lot of people to kind of like walk all over me, take advantage of me manipulate me. And yeah, 

[00:42:04] Ellington Brown: I can definitely relate to that as a black man. And I think a lot of that comes because of the way that we have been systematically browbeat. Sometimes you don't even realize it happening. I know living in San Francisco, where you would think it was very, very progressive.

Still, they were very There are a lot of racist people that live there. Only they did it with a smile. So you're smiling, they're smiling, they're spewing it out, and you're still smiling. And then maybe a week or so from the time it happened, you go, Hey, wait a minute! But, you know, the opportunity for you to address that has now, has now passed.

So it's kind of like, you know, these conversations are difficult to discuss. And you have a podcast, correct? 

[00:43:09] Carlos Anthony: So I was doing podcasting like a few years ago, again, when I was like trying to like learn my voice. But in like, understanding like the energy that is like required. I decided to just, you know, take a step back and focused on just like writing, um, producing and, and just like directing.

[00:43:33] Ellington Brown: Okay. So what did you, what did you find most rewarding, uh, or what was impactful from this experience of hosting your own podcast? 

[00:43:46] Carlos Anthony: Um, so it was what I enjoyed about it was My daughter and I were having conversations that I always wanted to have with my mother or my stepfather. Um, and I just felt like, for me, growing up, and there's parts of me that are, I guess, a little bit, like, still bothered by this.

But, like, when I was younger, I remember there being a lot of, like, racist jokes about, you know, why why don't why doesn't the NBA celebrate Father's Day? Oh, because black men and are are not around. And and these are, of course, being told by, like, white kids and, um, they obviously don't understand their ancestral their ancestors part in, like, the division of us, right?

So For me, growing up, like when I had my daughter, I had her, I was a teen, I was, I was 17 when her mother got pregnant, 18 is when she was here, right? It was just after high school, right? Which is where this book eventually ends, like the series ends. Um, and, During the time that I was in high school, high school, um, because of the fact, because of what was going on, like, with my parents, my parents were also trying to survive as immigrants as well.

My stepfather worked a lot and, you know, he did what he could to, you know, self soothe with, you know, the stress and just being in Toronto as an immigrant and maybe not necessarily being welcome, being screwed over, um, you know, by the system time and time again. And then my mother was, you know, also trying to, like, You know, raise us children and also like help support him with providing and she was also dealing with some of her trauma, um, as well, um, from her previous relationship, which was with my, um, my bio father, right?

So there was, there was a lot going on that I felt like prevented, um, me from having that relationship with my parents that I wanted to, like, where it's like healthy and like healed and we can have these good conversations. So that's why I decided to start the podcast where my daughter and I were just able to go ahead and like talk about some of the things that were happening in the media, some of the things that you know she might be like going through or experiencing as, you know, a young lady who was starting to go through puberty.

Um, and I found it very fulfilling because I felt like it was an opportunity for me to not just have a conversation with her, but also have a conversation with parents who might have some of the same concerns or may not necessarily, um, know the right words to say, or how to even engage in these kind of conversations.

So, yeah,

[00:46:31] Samuel Burke: Okay, thank you very much. You know You really have, uh, captured my thoughts, imagination, emotions, reflections, all of that in a beautiful way. I could listen to you all day, so thank you. And I'm sure you'll get an official thank you, you know, later on. But I just want to go back to Chapter 6 that Rita asked you about.

And there are a couple of things that your response that elicit. some other things from me. First of all, you talk about that one moment or incident that changed you, that, that, that spoke to you about the thought about going to jail. And historically, I think there are two things that As a people that I think parents or society tried to use to change us or as, as, as kids, one of them is going to jail as a boy, or as a, as a mayor.

And I think the other thing would be being pregnant as a girl. Those two things. are used almost as guardrails to keep you in line. So, it's interesting that, that was, you know, that, that, that spoke to you there. The other thing is that I believe there was a program at one point where they had, uh, men going into schools to talk to kids, those who've been in jail, to go to them, to talk to them about what's You know, the, the real life in jail, it's not a romantic thing or something theoretical.

It was real. Having listened to your story, or having listened to, you know, what you have to say, it seems like folly to just, okay, I read this book and there it is. Because, there has to be a counterbalance to this. And the thing that comes to mind is a book that is called The Pact, where it's a group of, I think it's three youngsters, somewhere in the States, and they made a pact that they would do well.

And they did do well. I can remember one of the individuals, I think it's Ramesh, I think his name was. Or Dr. Ramesh, because they, they got to the other side, and then they wrote their stories about that. So, you know, I would say that whoever is reading your book, or have read your book, that it's not all that.

There's another side to it, and that is that it's going through a phase, if you will, You can come out on the other side. And again, I look at it from the educator's point of view, from the education system point of view, and that there's a counterbalance to all of this. It's not all doom and gloom. So, thank you for all of that.

And again, there will be an official thank you, I'm sure. But I am fascinated. and intrigued by what it is that you've brought to the table or to this cast today. So thank you very much for that. 

[00:50:21] Carlos Anthony: Thank you. Thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate that.

[00:50:24] Rita Burke: I get the sense that this book has been therapeutic. A catharsis, an awakening for you. Talk about, talk about feelings coming out of your writing this book. 

[00:50:47] Carlos Anthony: Um, so as a method writer, um, especially like when I was getting into the home life, that was pretty like triggering, triggering for me. Um, I think sometimes, I understand as, like, a parent, because I have three, uh, young children, I understand that sometimes when you get upset and you're frustrated, um, things come out, and I think, so for me, when I was writing some of the, um, you know, the insults that were thrown at Romero, um, part of the reason why that was intentionally done was to show, um, how his self esteem was also being affected.

So for me, as I was, you know, reliving those moments and like writing those scenes, it was very emotional for me, um, because I'm a very confident person. Um, but I had to take myself back to a place where I was still living under my parents roof, um, and I couldn't really provide for myself. Um, but I mean, there's members in my family that can attest to, you know, how frustrated I was with the choices that were that were made.

Um, I had told my parents from like, I, I had told everyone in my family, it was like, as soon as I, you know, make enough money, I'm leaving and I'm never coming back. Um, and at 17, like, when my, um, when my girlfriend at the time had gotten, like, pregnant, um, and then we had, like, our daughter, um, that was, like, the opportunity for me to just, like, you know what I mean?

So writing this book and actually just writing, like, the second book and this whole series. Um, is definitely emotional rollercoaster for me. Um, and I'm happy that, you know, people resonate with it. Even the ones that don't necessarily relate to it, like yourself, Rita. I'm happy that I still have you intrigued enough where you want to go ahead and turn the next page or read the next chapter to see what's going to happen to the characters.

Um, so yeah.

[00:53:01] Ellington Brown: All I can say at this point is Thank you so much for allowing us to have this conversation with you. It has certainly been enriching. Can't think of a better word to use. We got an opportunity to take a glimpse at your international seller, Shades of Black and we actually touched just a little bit about one of your short films.

I think it was Triggered. And, and also personal stories from you and how you were able to adapt them to your book and to also realize that some of the things the editor, he couldn't even relate to because, well, how could he? For you to have to actually write the book and then have him edit it and then have to educate him, that was a, that was a really a lot of responsibility that you had to, to take, to take on in order to get this copy, uh, out to the community.

And I'll just leave it at that. So thank you so much for everything and I really want you to promise us that when your next book comes out, when that, when it hits the stands, I want you to come back to us and I want us to have another conversation because I'm sure our audience will be waiting to know about this upcoming sequel to your first book.

And that also goes with any, uh, plays or films that you produce. Please let us know. We would really love to have another conversation with you again, and thank you so much. 

[00:54:55] Carlos Anthony: Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me. Um, are you guys, um, in like Toronto or are you guys like Elton, I think you said that you're in like Philly?

[00:55:05] Ellington Brown: No, I'm from Phil. I'm from Philadelphia, but I am in Canada. I'm right outside of Toronto. I'm in a small town called Newcastle. Okay. Okay. 

[00:55:16] Rita Burke: And, and I am in Toronto. 

[00:55:19] Carlos Anthony: Okay. 

[00:55:19] Rita Burke: I was able to get, I was able to get the book from your mom. 

[00:55:24] Carlos Anthony: Okay. Okay. 

[00:55:25] Rita Burke: So that I could read it. Yes. 

[00:55:27] Carlos Anthony: Excellent. Okay. So what I'll do is, um, so Toronto, we, we have a couple like, um, locations of where we're planning on having, um, the production of the theater play.

So when we do have that, I'll make sure I send you guys some like tickets. And then yeah, and then you guys can come through and, um, take a look at it live. And then the second book, yeah, it's coming out next year. I'm not sure on like, what particular date and now because of the fact that the book has been pushed so many times.

I'm not even giving a date anymore. Um, but what I will say what the book is about, um, at the end of the first book, um, people will, will see that, um, There's unresolved issues with, um, Kalinda and, um, Romero. And there's consequences that Kalinda and her brother end up having. Um, the second book actually picks up from Kalinda wanting to, like, exact her revenge, and her manipulating, uh, the tension between the crypts and the bloods in the school to, um, Pressure Romero to make a choice in terms of who he chooses, either way it's going to be a setup for him, because if he's a Crip, she already has influence in the Crip, so she can go ahead and manipulate it that way, and if it's a Blood, then she can set him up that way.

It's another thriller, I think everyone's really going to enjoy it, um, and you know, we're, we still have like the school setting, but I'm also taking us into Rex, I'm taking us into Jamestown, um, and actually take us into what it's like, for, you know, this Guyanese boy to experience, um, at the time, what we called it, like a basement jam.

Um, so he's going to experience that live experience. He's going to have his first, like, dance with like a girl and have the awkwardness of it. Um, and then there's also going to be, you know, a bit of that romance, um, in that moment. So I'm really excited about it. And I'm looking forward to, you know, um, adding a few changes based on the last draft, just to make sure that it's still the masterpiece that I intended to be.

[00:57:38] Rita Burke: Thank you so much. It's been truly wonderful. And as we say on SpeakUP! International, we seek to inform, educate, and inspire and your stories certainly help us to meet those objectives. Thank you so much! 

[00:57:52] Carlos Anthony: Thank you guys!

[00:57:55] Ellington Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact Mr. Carlos Anthony, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address the reason why you wish to contact. Mr. Carlos Anthony at linkedin.com/in/carlosanthony. Mr. Carlos Anthony has other social media accounts, you can use to connect to him that will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms. 

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