[00:00:00] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! 

[00:00:16] Rita Burke: On SpeakUP! International, we have conversations with people from across the globe. Today, however, we're back in Canada, and we will be speaking with Celina Caesar-Chavannes. Selena is a dynamic professional with a remarkable track record across business, consultancy, politics, academia, and advocacy.

She is an acclaimed business consultant, coach, and international speaker. Selena also serves as a senior advisor for cultural transformation. Her political career includes serving as a Member of Parliament for Whitby and holding the prestigious positions such as Parliamentary Secretary to Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and to the Minister of International Development.

Known for championing mental health, equity, justice, and gender issues. She garnered numerous accolades during her tenure, including being recognized by the O Magazine and Chatelaine Magazine. Selina continues to serve her community through roles on the Lakeridge Health Foundation Board and Elexicon Cooperation Board.

Selina's Educational background is equally impressive, holding an executive MBA from the Rotman School of Management, and there's so much more I can tell you about our guest today. But as we say on SpeakUP! International, we prefer if our guests tell their stories, it's much more authentic. To our listeners today, I want you to help me welcome none other than Celina Caesar-Chavannes.

Welcome welcome! 

[00:02:14] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yay! Thank you so much for having me! 

[00:02:19] Ellington Brown: And the crowd goes wild! And the crowd goes wild! Yes, 

[00:02:24] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for having me! 

[00:02:27] Ellington Brown: This is going to be, I can tell this is going to be fun! 

[00:02:30] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yes. Let's keep it fun because politics and stuff could get a little drudgery.

Do not leave. Listen to the rest of this podcast. It's going to be good. 

[00:02:41] Ellington Brown: We promise. So your childhood was in Grenada and then in Canada. So how did that shape you into becoming an entrepreneur and politician? 

[00:02:57] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Oh my gosh. So first of all, I think what shaped me more than being an immigrant or coming from Grenada to Canada was the fact that I was the only girl, two boys, one older, one younger.

And so I had to have elbows up cause the older one would try to steal my chicken leg when, off my plates, all the little one was, I would take him out to different places. So I was like straddling both and really, Understanding that while you have your elbows up, you could either be body checking people or putting them up.

So you can give them a hug. So you have to learn how to play both. Being an entrepreneur and of course, I work in neurological research which was really specifically white male dominated. I did that for years, both elbows up and giving hugs, it was really an understanding for me of really getting to know myself and using those skills, but then transitioning into politics, the exact same thing really being able to use my voice to make critical changes for communities across Canada, irrespective of identity that I knew really needed support.

[00:04:06] Rita Burke: I read your book and we're going to talk a lot more about that as we go through our time together. But I have a softie for you. 

[00:04:15] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah. 

[00:04:15] Rita Burke: What's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to you? 

[00:04:19] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Oh, what is the nicest thing? Gosh, I don't, you know what? I do a million interviews. I'm on media a lot. I've never been asked that question before. So congratulations! The nicest thing that anyone has ever said to me was I think really to compliment. My smile and say that it was warming, I think so.

And the reason I say that, let me put some context for our listeners is because. As you heard in the bio, I was parliamentary secretary to the prime minister, and we may get into this a little bit more, but I would often go to meetings where people would say where's the parliamentary secretary and my team would say, Oh, her right there.

And the person will look right through me for the other person who could have been the parliamentary second it was impossible for them to imagine that this woman, a young black woman in front of them was this, like this powerful position. And so that my staff again would say, no it's her.

And then they would look above me, like over my head to find the person that is, the real parliamentary secretary. And so when people say things like, I see your smile and you're, you have that warm presence, it means that they actually seeing not just you, but they're seeing into you, and I've often said that, when someone says, I see you.

It is the greatest compliment that you could give someone because it goes beyond just the the physical appearance. It goes into the depth of that person and anything that I do, whether it's politics or my research or entrepreneurship, I want it to be for the collective. For our collective humanity, and when you could see that when that shines out.

I'm doing my job, right? 

[00:06:10] Ellington Brown: I have to agree with you. I think, out of all of what you said, I don't want anyone messing with my fried chicken. I just don't! 

[00:06:21] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: You know what, Elton, I dropped so much gems, and you got the fried chicken out of that? 

[00:06:26] Ellington Brown: Yes! That's what I picked! Don't worry. I'm really good at coming back and grabbing what I drop. 

[00:06:34] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Okay! 

[00:06:35] Ellington Brown: Can you just further discuss some of the challenges you face as a black woman in Canadian politics? 

[00:06:43] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah, and I want to contextualize this for your international listeners. Oftentimes we think about Canada as being like, this great white north, this place where many people who escaped from the great migration, if anybody has read the warmth of other sons by Isabel Wilkerson, of course, she has a great book cast the, her previous book or seminal book, the warmth of other sons really talks about the great migration that happened from the 17th century, 17 hundreds to the 17 nineties, where people left the Jim Crow South and went north or went west to California, went north to New York.

Some came to Canada, and we really don't think about Canada as a place that had over 200 years of slavery, had segregated schools, had red zoning. So Okay. When we think about contextually, the fact that all of these things happened in Canada, that is often been erased or dismissed. It's critically important.

And 1 of the reasons I wrote my book to really emphasize that history. Now, before I get into that. Completely, I want to remind folks that the center of our democracy here in Canada the Parliament buildings that exist in Ottawa. Got their 1st women's washroom in 1984. So when you say that a space was not built for you.

Tell me a space wasn't built for you without telling me a space wasn't built for you, right? If you're not going to put a washroom in it, it wasn't built for you. So when a black woman shows up and not just any black woman, I'm a black woman. Who's not afraid to speak up to say what I feel, to, to really ruffle a little bit of feathers.

That place was definitely not built for me. So right from the beginning, As the only black woman elected in the 42nd Parliament, meaning the only person that had a face that looked like mine was me out of 338 people. Now, the security is both their job, not their feeling, not what they would like to their hobby.

Their job is to remember every member of Parliament. Because if you remember a few years ago, there was a shooting on Parliament Hill. And when the security remembers you, they're able to then protect you. And what I found was, every time I'd go into a building, they would they didn't remember who I was.

I was parliamentary secretary to the prime minister. I'd be going up to the third floor of parliament to the prime minister's office and being asked, am I the help of the minister that was walking in front of me? And so it gave me the impression that if something were to happen, they'd push me out of the way and go save like Bill Morneau, another, the minister of finance.

And this was reiterated when Mumalat Kagak, who was another member of parliament from up north, she said the same thing. She said, I didn't feel safe there. And Mumalat Kagak has face tattoos. It's impossible to not remember who she is. I was not allowed access to buildings. Access to transportation. I was told when I, when a woman walks into the washroom and she left her purse on the counter, don't steal my bag.

I was ridiculed. I was, it was an actual impossible position of which I'll reiterate this. My title did not protect me. 

[00:09:58] Ellington Brown: How did that make you feel? 

[00:10:02] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Man. So I'm actually doing my PhD in, in, in neuroscience right now. And I wish I knew then what I knew now. So of course you're going through all these things and you're really having these ultra negative emotions that are coming up because you're feeling like I felt like I didn't belong.

I felt like I knew what was happening, but I felt Oh God, am I in like this twilight zone. And. It's not until I'm actually studying this that I realized that when people are put in these contacts, and they're called social identity threats, you actually have a psychological stress response that harms your body.

And when that psychological stress response is activated, your brain, instead of trying to pick up the good things that could possibly come out of the situation, it consistently focuses on the negative. And it sent me into this terrible depression. It sent me into this terrible anxiety. And I had one of my first, what you would call, quote, a nervous breakdown when I was in Parliament.

[00:11:07] Rita Burke: You are saying so much that I think just one of your statements could constitute a book. Nevertheless, you talked about ruffling feathers. 

[00:11:22] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah. 

[00:11:23] Rita Burke: Share with our audience. Where did you learn? Strategies for ruffling feathers. 

[00:11:31] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: You know what, at three years old, growing up, coming to Canada, I was the, you're, you tell little girls, you should be seen and not heard.

No, that was not, that was, I think I came out of the womb swearing, I had more bad words in me that there were more than there were bad words in the dictionary. So I don't know. I think it was again, that being that the middle child being the only girl I would stand at the top of the stairs with nothing on at three years old.

And I'll be like, if you want my body. Rod Stewart was my guy, right? So I would be, I'd be, I was always just getting into trouble. And I realized that I could do two things. One, like really stand out because I was very smart, stand out academically. And that could do great things for me, or I could stand out cussing and beating up the boys in the yard and get myself into more trouble.

So the nice blend of that, Is good trouble and so you learn to get yourself into good trouble to really ruffle the feathers. But as long as those ruffling of the feathers is for the greater good is for the collective is for our communities is for our greater humanity. Then look, sorry, birds. I'm going to ruffle the feathers! 

[00:12:51] Rita Burke: Lets ruffle some feathers!

[00:12:54] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yes! Yes, I do not mind, nor do I care!

[00:13:00] Ellington Brown: I think going into any type of position, if you go in with that type of attitude, I think you get more out of it than you would ever imagine, because people see you as carefree, you don't care, I'm here to do my thing, if you like it, great, if you don't, oops. That's your problem.

And I think that's an excellent attitude. So how has your advocacy for great, thank you, for gender and racial equity involved since leaving office? 

[00:13:41] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Great question. Uh, this is the thing, your advocacy, your passion, your purpose.

If it is tied to a title, then it will leave with the title. My passion. For gender equity for racial justice for the democratization of justice for the removal of barriers that prevent people, especially those who are going to be left behind at the nexus of climate change geopolitical issues, a global pandemic refugee crises, the ones that are going to be left behind often look like me.

 If my advocacy gets tied to a title, if my advocacy is brought to bear because I am X person in X position, then that will leave when I leave that position. My advocacy has never changed. I am way less unencumbered by it. The fact that I no longer have to report to the prime minister's office, and if you will indulge me for even for the readers that did not read my book, I'll read you the last paragraph of the last page.

Page 260, the last paragraph says this "to the people of Canada and beyond your value is not determined by your title and leadership does not require a title. The power has always belonged to the people. It is time that the people realize their power. It is not enough to hear my voice. We need to hear you too."

The power of the people. That's what democracy means in Greek demos and kratos. The power of the people always belongs to the people. The advocacy that I have has only built and brightened and sharpened since I left politics. Because I'm gathering all of those lessons that I learned from politics.

I'm adding them to my neuroscience PhD. I'm adding it to the information that I'm having through my entrepreneurship, through my university access, through all of these things. I'm adding that up and it is sharpening. And it's being pointed because I know at the end of the day, I need to use my voice to give others the, just a little bit that they need.

So that they could use theirs too and not feel afraid. 

[00:16:13] Rita Burke: So you're using your voice to help people to recognize their own voice and to begin to use your voice because many of us are muzzled for whatever reason, for circumstances, for the way we were socialized, for the society around us. Many of us are still muzzled.

So we thank you for that. You started a career in business. Talk to us about that, please. 

[00:16:41] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Oh, man. I'm starting my career. So if I can I go a little bit before that? 

[00:16:47] Rita Burke: Sure, please. 

[00:16:48] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: So I left high school top of my class again, I reiterate, I'm not just cute. I was very smart. You don't have to convince us we know we are.

So I left high school top of my class. When I got into university I started to falter. I ended up taking getting a. It's taking six years to finish a three year degree. I graduated with a 1. 58 GPA. So I was really unsure of myself. I went back and did an undergraduate research course back at U of T. I was married.

I had a child, went back and I fell in love with research. Got my 1st a on my transcript, never had an a on a university transcript. And then I became a research assistant or research coordinator working at U of T doing all these jobs with cognitive neuro rehabilitation, working with Alzheimer's, all this stuff related to the brain.

And so I just, I kept moving up, I did my first MBA and I went to get a job as a research manager, couldn't get a job because I was overqualified and didn't have enough managerial experience. Of course, me, I'm a hustler. I started my own company because I had a child, I had two children to feed and a husband to feed.

So basically, I had four children to feed, and so I really needed to start this business, but I wanted to be smart about it. Because again, I'm working with neuroscientists. I've seen who was in my circles before mainly white men. So I start this company and I know I'm going to do really great at it. First year.

I didn't make any money. I didn't show my face. I didn't show my name. I didn't put any kind of descriptions about me. I marketed based on the company logo and my brilliance. So I'd write articles to the editor of the magazine. Of research magazines or brain magazines. I'll get myself out there, but I would never use my face.

And that resulted in the 1st year really didn't making and not making any money. But at the end of the 1st year, the 1st check that I received for resolve research solutions incorporated that was the name of the company was the down payment to our 1st home.

No lie. No cap. That's what the kids say these days. No cap. 

[00:19:05] Ellington Brown: Wow! That is absolutely amazing And it just goes to show, hard work does pay off. 

[00:19:15] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah, 

[00:19:16] Ellington Brown: It may not seem that it's going to pay off. You just have to believe in yourself. And I noticed on several occasions, you have no problem saying, I am wonderful.

I can do this. I can do anything I want. And I think we all need to take note. When we feel ourselves backed in the corner and we feel that we can't make it that we should look in the mirror and say we are wonderful! 

[00:19:48] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I can I add something to this though? Because I think it's important for your listeners because it wasn't just that I, I managed to create this business and then boom, I got a down payment check.

We were living in this awful apartment in Ajax, Ontario. We had no furniture. I feel like I'm going to cry. We had no furniture. We had two kids. We had a bed for my eldest daughter and a mattress for myself, my husband and the baby. We used to go out on Monday nights in Ajax, where we lived down on Lake Driveway.

If people know it, they could reference it. Monday nights was garbage night. We would walk around and see if anybody would like, but I need furniture and eat like tables, desks, chairs, whatever we could like, pull together. We would dumpster dive for our furniture. That it's starting that business. I kept saying for the 1st year.

Oh, my gosh, to my husband, I'm not making any money. Maybe I could just stop and I'll go work. I'll work at shoppers drug, because I was a pharmacy technician in high school. I could easily get that job. He said no multiple times. He said, I'll get another job. He worked and he was a teacher.

He worked night school, and he also worked at the paint department at the Home Depot, so he had three jobs that he said, I believe in this. I believe in this. So it wasn't just that we got that check. But it was that dogged determination. It was filling ourselves with this. Absolutely! We are going to succeed mentality, which has a cognitive component to it.

I won't get into it, but your brain actually works that way. And I was surrounded by people that would that just supported me along the way. So you don't get to places by yourself and you don't get to places without being grateful and in gratitude for where you came to where you are.

[00:21:40] Ellington Brown: Silence. We're gonna leave the laughing in!

[00:21:42] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I left you speechless!

[00:21:45] Ellington Brown: No, I have so many windows open here. I sometimes get lost in the sea of windows. 

[00:21:52] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: That's okay. That's okay. 

[00:21:53] Ellington Brown: When you. Went through hard times. It's obvious. And I can definitely relate to that growing up. I think a lot of Black families can relate to that growing up.

So what do you see as the most pressing issues that are facing Canada in terms of diversity and inclusion?

[00:22:18] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Diversity and inclusion. Okay. Okay wait. Let me contextualize this. Because the problem is not diversity or inclusion. We have diversity. The problem is that people think that's all we need. Once we have, oh, we have a black guy there, or somebody in a wheelchair there. We have a person who's part of the 2SLGBTQIA community there, and we have a indigenous person there, and we have a this here, and we have a that there.

Or we got Selena. We could check two boxes because she's black and a woman. That is diversity. That is ubiquitous. We have diversity. The challenge is that we're not telling our stories enough. To actually create inclusion and inclusion as the active ongoing engagement with diversity. And so if we're not engaging with diversity, if we're not talking to each other and saying, here are my struggles that could help you with your risks.

And somebody says here's the things that made my life easier that could help you with your struggles. If we're not doing that, we're not actively engaging. We're not leveraging our diversity. And so our diversity means nothing. It is not our strength. It is one component Of our strength, and then beyond that, once we get to inclusion, then we go to equity, which means that we decide, hey, with all these stories that are telling, how can we make life easier for people more equitable?

How could you give people what they need based on who they are? And so you start really being strategic about giving people those resources that they need. And then beyond that. The ultimate goal is the democratization of justice, actually removing the barriers that prevent people from thriving in a G7 country.

And so diversity and inclusion is not our problem, because we don't even understand what it is. The fact of the matter is, if we do not have a mentality to set the bar higher and aim for the democratization of justice, and even better than that, a pluralistic society, then we are actually failing our citizens, and just saying that diversity is our strength as a hashtag, you know what?

Don't even get me started. I want to stay in a good mood right now! 

[00:24:32] Rita Burke: We're going to get you back there into that good mood, but I hear you. I hear you. I

see you! And I'm sure our audience or listeners will as well. Today, we're having this conversation with Celina Caesar-Chavannes and on SpeakUP! International we seek to inform to inspire and to educate and I know without a shadow of a doubt her story is going to do that for you or listeners today. Back when we started this conversation.

You mentioned. The need to ruffle feathers, and that has carved a mark on my DNA already, that need to ruffle feathers. Have you seen any change so far feathers. Have you seen progress? Have you seen improvement? Talk to us about that. 

[00:25:32] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah, so you know what the challenges is, sometimes we always go back and see the negative that we don't actually pay attention to some of the positive things that happened.

And so I've actually had to take time to write down what happened and where has it gone. While I was in politics, I was very just like my book. My book is very open, transparent. I'm very vulnerable. I was very vulnerable there to talking about my, I live with major depressive disorder, my anxiety and actually during that time was the 1st time that Canada earmarked 5 billion dollars for youth under the age of 25 to have access to mental health services.

It wasn't just me doing it, though. It was a collective effort, but my story was part of that fabric. The fact that we have Viola Davis on a sorry, Viola Desmond on a 10 bill, that was a chance. And nothing's to chance the universe always works as it should. That was a meeting that we had at a lunch with black caucus with the minister of finance at the time.

After we had the dinner, I got up to him and I said, I'm going to plead with you right now to put this woman. On the 10 bill and I gave him my plea and she is on the 10 bill. But the most significant I think for myself is the last act, and I'm going to be very emotional when I say this, because I was a parliamentary secretary, I couldn't introduce any bills into the House of Commons.

And when I sat as an independent, I had an opportunity to present a bill, even though it's going to die on the order paper. I only had 6 months left. It would never make it to final reading, but I thought it was important for me to present it on the last day. The last day of the sitting of the house. We had an incident that happened.

I thought for sure I wasn't going to be able to present this bill. And it was funny because some of the conservatives and NDP had helped me craft the bill, get it to the library, get it presented so that I could table it on the last day. It incident has to happen. I thought I wasn't going to be able to present it.

Candace Bergen the house leader of the conservative said, Selena, we're going to make space for you present your bill. That was bill 468. 468 was a bill challenging the Employment Act because I had heard for those four years that Black people within the federal public service, namely 70 percent of them who were women, were being passed over for promotion.

Some of them had worked there 30 years, 30 years! without promotion. And so I wanted to bring their voice to the table. I wanted to make sure that even if it was the last thing that I do, which it ended up being the last thing that I did, that their voice was there. And now we have the historic black class action lawsuit that has been filed against the government of Canada that has been endorsed by human rights organizations by the UN calling out Canada for it's absolutely deplorable behavior. To people who work in the center of our democracy, federal public servants who have denied been denied their humanity.

And so I am, I'm very proud to have tabled that piece of legislation, have it on the record that we have those individuals voices. at the table in that place. 

[00:29:09] Ellington Brown: I do know that last night you said that you had chicken and peas and rice. So my question is, A, did you cook it? B, can you cook? And what is the favorite dish that you like cooking?

[00:29:24] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: So jerk chicken, rice and peas. I have to be honest here. That was an experiment. It tasted good. I love to cook. I don't like to tell people that I could cook because then at every family event, somebody's going to want you to cook something. So I don't want to, I don't want to put that out there, but I do.

I love to cook fancy. My favorite thing to cook is not to cook at all is to mix a good drink. And to enjoy a good drink. I'm gonna be a mixologist when I go, 

[00:30:00] Ellington Brown: What a cop! What a cop out! That's such a, that is such a cop out! You , say you could cook, you love to cook, but you don't wanna cook because somebody will ask you to cook and bring something to somebody's house That's to eat.

That's correct. So you don't wanna do that, but you'll fix drinks for everybody. 

[00:30:18] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yep. Yep. I'm not ashamed to say that. That's fair! 

[00:30:20] Rita Burke: That is fair. I like your truth. And I like the fact that you like to tell your truth. We can take it or leave it. 

[00:30:32] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yes, 

[00:30:33] Rita Burke: I hear that. 

[00:30:33] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I'm going to keep it real!

[00:30:35] Ellington Brown: Hey! I'm all for that! 

[00:30:38] Rita Burke: You're a public speaker. Yes. And I know that public speaking is not an easy thing to do. Talk to us about, talk to us about some of the topics that you usually speak about. 

[00:30:55] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yes. Here, do you mind if I shamelessly plug my older brother, Roger Caesar, who is a champion world speaker with with Toastmasters.

All right. He's just absolutely brilliant! https://rogercaesar.com/. But public speaking is not easy. And and I want to say to you, to your listeners, before I tell you what I speak about, that when I first did a recording of my voice for my MBA program, you have to learn how to public speak. It was a catastrophe when I went to media training for being an MP.

Catastrophe! When I did my first few speeches in the house, catastrophe! And then I had to do them in French. I don't even know what that was. I had to apologize for the audience by the global affairs for one of my speeches. It was so bad. However, what I decided to do was to challenge myself by not writing my speeches.

So I challenged myself to say, okay, global affairs or whoever ministry that you want me to say something, tell me the top three things that I need to nail in this speech. French or English, and I will do it, but I will write my own speech and I will, or I will come up with my own speech. And I challenged myself to do that.

And I challenged myself to make mistakes and to fumble through my words and to sometimes not say things correctly. And that was okay. Cause as I built it up, I was able to do it better. And so the things that I talk about right now is really, it's around. The democratization of justice, but it really is around understanding our cognitive processes that prevent us from reducing our biases.

So the things that prevent us from actually creating fairness in spaces or actually showing up as our real self. Because it goes both ways that's what I love to speak about. I love to speak about that empowerment of individuals. I love to speak about their capacity to do phenomenal things and how our brain plays a role in all of that stuff.

To help you do a lot better and so I do it through coaching, executive coaching, through speaking through technical workshops through curriculum building. So I, and I have fun with it. It is fun. So if it's not fine, don't force yourself to do it. I forced myself to speak because I had my job forced me to do it, but I made it fun.

And when it's fun, it's worth doing! 

[00:33:24] Ellington Brown: I agree with you a hundred percent on that. I wonder because of your experience in Parliament and all of the experiences that you had, both good and bad, What advice would you give black women who are considering a career in politics? 

[00:33:45] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Run run like wolves, run like you're hungry run.

I would say run, but do it differently. So I'm going to plug my book again, read chapter 13, go to the library. I don't care how you get it, get chapter 13 because chapter 13 talks about the mistakes that I made. So number one. I'm going to tell you to run and you're going to say Selena, you left. So why are you telling me to run?

I'm going to tell you to run. Cause I'm going to tell you what the mistakes I made that I won't do the next time I run. Cause I'm going to come back. Number one, don't let your loneliness or your don't let your loneliness become your only ness that again, don't let your low, your loneliness become your onlyness. You might feel alone. You might, I was the only one there. I was this, I was that, I made it. I was lonely, but I'm not the only one in other industries. I was the only one in parliament at the time, but I wasn't the only one in banking. I wasn't the only one In C suite positions. I wasn't the only one in tech.

I wasn't the only one. I needed to connect and form that circle. What I call it is a board of directors, just like a business has a board of directors. Selena incorporated has a board of directors and that board of directors is a series of bossed up women and men. And others that are just there to say when I'm about to jump off the cliff.

Oh, Selena, do not jump. Don't do that today. So you create that board of directors. That's the second thing is tied to that is really making those solid connections with people. So you have a circle, that's your board of directors, but you also need your safety, your social safety net. So you need that safety net of people that when they say, when they say things that to you that are, they're not right when you're getting that negative feedback loop that we talked about in the beginning.

And, Hey, I know I'm better than this. This is whether, about social identity threat or not, yourself and in social identity threatening situations you're capable, but in those situations, you will fail because all of a sudden you become incapable of doing something because you are now not thinking from a cognitive perspective.

You're thinking from a stress perspective, and it is sabotaging you. And so if you surround yourself with people that say girl. Excuse me. You need some of those. You need some of those ride or dies that'll shake you and say don't do that. Not today. You could cry. You could whimper somewhere else.

But today you go in that boardroom. You go in that place and you do what you need to do. And when you come out of there, we will cloak. You will protect you and we'll let you cry here. But there at 9 o'clock, you show up, you do your job. So you need to have a couple of things in place. That are going to allow you to be protected, to be vulnerable when you need to be, but also to just be able to thrive and have fun in that space.

Because if we're not having fun, don't do it. 

[00:36:55] Rita Burke: Hear you loud and clear. And I do believe that as a group, as a people, we have operated from a stress perspective. Sometimes we do from the time we come out of the womb, we're operating from a stress perspective. And it doesn't do any good for us because I believe we're entitled to joy. I think Every soul in this world. 

[00:37:21] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: It is our birthright. It is our birthright to have joy! 

[00:37:24] Rita Burke: Joy is our birthright! And I think it's important for us to keep reminding each other. 

[00:37:29] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yes. 

[00:37:29] Ellington Brown: To keep reminding each other, get some joy out of it or don't do it. Yes. It's our birthright. Yes. We are very fortunate on SpeakUP! International because the people we have these conversations with, the people we banter with back and forth, always come across as confident.

And that makes me so proud of my tribe, of the people I belong to. People are confident and we don't go seeking people who are necessarily confident, but you are radiating that. Where does that come from? Tell our audience how they can become confident as well. 

[00:38:07] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: You know what? There's a couple of things.

The first is, I dedicated my book to my mom. Now, when people read my book, they're like, Oh my God, your relationship with your mother was so like tumultuous. Iron sharpens iron. Pillows don't sharpen iron. Feathers don't sharpen iron. Iron sharpens iron. And she did the best that she could. And she raised one hell of a daughter.

So that grit comes from her, but we all have a teacher. That has taught every single 1 of us. I had, I started with her in grade one. Her name was Mis Take. Did you have a teacher named Mis Take? 

[00:38:54] Ellington Brown: No, 

[00:38:54] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I don't know why you say no Mis Take was your teacher Mis Take. mistake! 

[00:39:00] Ellington Brown: Mistake oh god!. Yes, that was my teacher. 

[00:39:06] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Mis Take has been your teacher. Everybody has had this teacher. Mis Take. Mis Take usually leaves you with a gift at the end of the trial. She leaves you with shame and hurt, pain, suffering. But if you take a moment, just one small moment to ask Mis Take. Mis Take. What's the lesson that I'm trying to, that you're trying to teach me here, me not anybody else or, I got into this trouble because of so and and they did this and he did that and she did this and whatever Mis Take.

What did I get here and what are you trying to teach me Mis Take will give you the greatest gift in that lesson, but you have to ask. What is the lesson she'll leave you with all the other stuff and you could just take that and just go in a corner. But that confidence comes from the fact when I talked about that interview with the board of directors with the board directors at U of T.

And somebody asked me, aren't you don't you live with regrets in that moment? I was like, no. And by that part of the book, I'd made so many mistakes that I mean, you would have thought the answer would have been absolutely no, I live with no regrets because every single lesson that Ms. Take has given me, I have learned from, and it has created the person that I am today. So excuse me, regrets?

Regrets only produce confidence. That's what it does. If you don't regret, if you learn from the mistakes, you get the confidence because nothing shames you. You take the power out of the shame. You take, you, you make your messy, your message. You make your pain, your purpose. You make your hurt healing for someone else.

So that it's not necessarily confidence. It's a real love of just living my life with audacity. It's, there's nothing I have confidence. You know how much confidence I have. I have so much confidence. I ran for mayor for the city of Toronto. Does anybody know that? Probably no one.

You know why? Because the person that won got 250, 000 votes. You know how much votes I got? 250. The person that won got a thousand times more votes than I did. I only 250 people in Toronto. Only 250. But when people say why'd you run? Aren't you feeling ashamed? No! I lived my life with such audacity that I could say I did that.

And yes, I But you know what I learned? I learned X, Y, and Z. Live. Live. You could only create the confident self if you don't know what, if you know what you don't like. You know what you can't do. You know what you're incapable of. The only way that you can be capable and confident and doing is when you know what you can't.

Because you've done it. You've left a blood in the 

[00:42:16] Rita Burke: theater. It's Elton's turn to ask a question, but I'm going to butt in here because I'll forget my question. As you talked about living your life without audacity, some women that I've admired all of my life came to mind. I'll name a few of them. Viola Desmond, because you spoke about her, because she lived her life without audacity.

Rosa Parks. Winnie Mandela Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, and so many others who, because they lived their lives with audacity, we are where we are today. They've created that path for us, and you're one of those people, and those are the people that we interview and speak of international because you're creating a path.

You're a community builder, and I don't say that lightly, and I appreciate that. Thank you. 

[00:43:06] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Thank you. 

[00:43:07] Ellington Brown: We talked a little bit about mental health and the importance of providing support for everyone. Did you see that type of support for politicians and public figures? 

[00:43:23] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yes, so 100%. I think that there was that, but you have to remember Elton that there is a sort of a double whammy that.

People of color, women, Black, Indigenous folks. have to also navigate. So I'm the only Black woman in the entire parliament. Elton, you tell me, can I be sick one day? Can I not show up to work? It'll be like, she's not here. It gives you an extra additional pressure to show up to be there to do things to to work.

And this is why we get this sort of work twice as hard twice as long twice as whatever it puts us in a very. Impossible situation to actually prioritize self care. So while someone else might just say, oh I need a sick day or I need a mental health day. I'll be very cognizant about the fact I don't want to be the 1st one to ask.

I don't want to ask too many times. I don't want to make sure that I'm asking on a Friday or a Monday because then I look like I'm trying to take a long week. I'm going through all these hoops that I'm just like, forget it. I'm just going to go away. So there's. I want to contextualize this for our listeners and I know we don't have time to talk about, a lot of the cognitive stuff that goes along, but there we, we really need to.

Give ourselves a little bit of a break and understand that create those connections because oftentimes we won't be able to take those mental health days at work because of the circumstances that we're in. And I want to be very cognizant of that. So support, find those supportive systems, challenge your workspaces.

If you can take the days, if you can use them, make sure that you do, but keep yourself safe and while yourself, your physical self, your mental self, your spiritual self, your financial self. Keep yourself, safe. 

[00:45:35] Rita Burke: You have told us a lot and you haven't told us everything, but I would like to know, Miss Celina Caesar-Chavannes, if there's anything you would like to leave with our listeners, you would consider important enough to leave with our listeners that we haven't asked you.

[00:46:01] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Yeah. You know what? I want to go back to this conversation about audacity. Because I think it's really important. It's how I've lived, but it's also something that I really. I'm intentional about my audacity. And so I talked to my mom sometimes and I say, on my, when I, on my tombstone, she's Oh, don't talk to me about your tombstone.

I said, but mom, no, listen to me on my tombstone. I want it to say, all she had left to do was die. I want people to show up at my funeral and go, man, did she do, she's been doing, she did all kinds of things. What did she, what else could she do? All she had left to do was die. I want to live. I want us, to live, not exist in this world.

It we talked about this earlier, joy, happiness, harmony, peace are our birthright. There is a whole world out there of fun and exciting and new things. I talked to my young people. I'm like, kiss frogs, travel, eat things, have good time!

[00:47:08] Rita Burke: I am sorry. I got to draw the line on the frog thing. 

[00:47:13] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: You gotta kiss a frog to find the prince, lady.

Do not draw the line on the frog. 

[00:47:19] Ellington Brown: Wait a minute. You don't Rita, you don't eat frog legs? 

[00:47:24] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: No, you always take it too far, Elton. 

[00:47:26] Ellington Brown: Hey, come on. They're good. The French loves them! 

[00:47:31] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: I said kiss frogs, don't eat frogs! 

[00:47:33] Rita Burke: She said kiss frogs. 

[00:47:34] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: But live your life such that you don't have any regrets.

You are learning from your mistakes. You are taking chances. You're getting outside of your comfort zone. You are living. And in the end, when the top shelf liquor is pouring at my funeral, and the soca is playing, and people are dancing, I want people to say, Yeah, girl, whoo! All she had left to do was die!

[00:48:03] Rita Burke: Was die. Here you go. I like that that, that's an, that puts a bow on the gift. Yes. All she has left to do is die. I like that. Thank you. You've gifted me.

[00:48:16] Ellington Brown: I think that's a beautiful statement. And I think it. It changes the atmosphere of your funeral and it's supposed to be in, down and out and people crying.

I think it would put them in a position to truly celebrate your life, not, Yes. Crying. Because usually if you're crying, there's some regret there, there's regrets. And that's why people cry. So you're going to make sure that you don't have any of those. And 

[00:48:45] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: No, none of those!

I've lived such an amazing life and I'm just getting started. So I'm just getting started. I am just getting started. Oh my God. I'm doing my PhD. I'm just, I'm loving this part of, I love, I turned 50 and I'm just like, I'm just, this is good. Now we actually just like we go, we have a little money in the bank, we have our kids off at school, we could go do some stuff.

Let's do this. This is the time! 

[00:49:15] Ellington Brown: I must say that. The time has moved so fast. I couldn't believe it. I looked down at the beginning when our conversation started. Next thing I know, they were like 10 minutes left. I'm telling Rita. Oh, it looks like we're coming to the end of this. And it seems that your presence, your

love of life, really just caused this conversation to float. We started off talking about you and your childhood in Grenada and in, Canada. We talked about what you would say to help Black women who are, thinking about getting into Canadian politics, your time as Parliamentary Secretary, both the good and the bad situations that you found yourself in, and the Ooh, la, which is you getting your PhD and you're actually loving it and your love for life is infectious!

And I definitely would want to open a, and I'm not a drinking person. But if I found out that you had moved on to the chapel, that I would be willing to crack a bottle of Chavez Regal and give you a toast! 

[00:50:59] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Let's go! I'm ready! 

[00:51:03] Ellington Brown: So thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. We really appreciate it.

Our audience is going to love you! Maybe not as much as we do, but, I can't speak for them. So please when you write your next book by the way, her book, Can you hear me now? Is out everywhere! I just downloaded it off of Audible Oh, by the way, if you download it from Audible, it's her that's reading the book.

I don't know if that's a plus, but that's definitely a mover for me, so thank you so much. And please, when you write your next book, drop us a line. We'd love to. Have another conversation with you.! 

[00:51:49] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Love that! If any questions from your audience for me, I'm available on all social media channels at I am Selena CC.

[00:51:58] Rita Burke: It's been, it's been a delight. I certainly appreciate the conversation. And I often will say at the end of these conversations is that our guests pour into me. They enrich my life and I really appreciate that. 

[00:52:17] Celina Caesar-Chavannes: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate being here on SpeakUP! International!

Thank you! 

[00:52:27] Ellington Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact Ms. Saline. Cesar Chavez. Please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact caesar's the bads. At cc.ca. Steve has other social media platforms. And you can use to connect. That will be listed in the description section on Spotify and other social media platforms. 

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