Elton Brown: 0:09

Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

Rita Burke: 0:16

We have chatted with people from Nigeria, from Britain, from Mexico. Today, we are speaking with someone who is In Brazil, and I am excited about that! We are speaking with Dr. Sarah Webb. She is the founder and the owner of Colorism Healing, which is a global leader in raising awareness, shifting attitudes, and taking action to address colorism. Dr. Webb has hosted an international Writing contest. And she has published books. She's also been on the TEDx stage. I would like our listeners to meet Dr. Sarah Webb!

Elton Brown: 1:14

It is so good to have you on our podcast, Good Doctor.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 1:20

Yes, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here!

Elton Brown: 1:25

You're in Brazil, and you've been there for at least a few days now.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 1:31

Mm

Elton Brown: 1:32

hmm. What do you find most exciting? The people or... The food?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 1:40

Oh, definitely The people. the food is, the food is fine, but I'm from South Louisiana, so I'm, I'm used to like nice cuisine, right? So wherever I grow in the world, I appreciate good food for sure. But what really stands out to me is always the people, and especially in Brazil, and I'm in Salvador, Brazil specifically, and being of African American descent, knowing that. This city, this town has the largest population of Afro descended people outside it within the diaspora is really meaningful and I actually get to wake up and look at the Atlantic Ocean every day. And so it's really meaningful knowing that that was literally the middle passage of so many of our ancestors and I'm excited to get out and venture out more in the days and weeks to come and really learn more. Firsthand, like in place about this history and about the people, my Portuguese is not great, but everyone is communicating with me as best as we can and super friendly. And I like the diversity because I've been to like Costa Rica, for example, which is also a beautiful country, but not as diverse. And so Brazil is just filled with a lot of vibrance and color, and it's very colorful place in more ways than one.

Rita Burke: 2:58

Thank you for that response, Dr. Webb. It sounds to me as if you are a bit of a nomad. You travel the world. Searching for information about your history, your background, your families. Thank you for that! I want to move to a topic that I'm really fascinated about. It's a topic that I heard you speaking about a while back, and you took me off guard. Because I'd never heard the word being used before. And that word is colorism. So... Tell our audience what colorism is and why is it important to address this particular issue. The stage is yours.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 3:47

Absolutely. So colorism has the phenomenon, the issue itself has been known by other names such as shadism, being colorstruck. Um, pigmentocracy, right? But Alice Walker, who's the author of many great, um, American works of literature, including The Color Purple, she wrote an essay back in the 80s, um, that used the word colorism specifically to talk about the different Life experiences that people of the same race have based on how light or dark their skin tone is relative to each other. And so colorism is a social system in which people with the lightest skin tones, especially in terms of Eurocentric standards of beauty and respectability are, you know, privileged or given higher status or place more value on lighter skin and straighter hair textures and people sort of stigmatize and discriminate against and look down on. Darker skin tones and kinkier hair textures and fuller features. And it matters because one, it is a parallel system to racism. And so I've really been emphasizing and reiterating that for people who care about an issue like racism, we colorism because it results in the same disparities. It results in the same inequalities. And it's really fitting that I'm in a place like Brazil, because a lot of. Latin American countries don't use racial distinctions the way we do in the United States. And so the color disparities, the disparities in income and education levels are really prominent in terms of those who have the lightest skin tones and those who have the darkest skin tones and even the types of jobs and who you see on TV and who gets to be the main character in the telenovelas, right? And so colorism is a global phenomenon. And so people And many, many countries around the globe will report their experiences of only being told that light skin is valuable or being told that their dark skin is going to limit their chances in terms of marriage or career opportunities and people, you know, the skin bleaching industry is a multibillion dollar industry and it's growing from here. It's expected to grow exponentially in the next, you know, five years. And so this is their, there's this push and this desire to, um, promote Eurocentric standards of beauty that spill into how we perceive people in terms of their intelligence, who's considered more suspicious or who's looked at as like the criminal, right? And when we're calling the police on people, they most often have darker skin tones. And so when we look at a lot of the social inequalities that most people listening. really care about. Colorism is an important factor that leads to a lot of those problems as well as race and sexism and other isms similar to that.

Rita Burke: 6:40

It's interesting that you said that because I grew up close to Brazil in Guyana. They were our neighbors. But my mother was of a relatively light complexion. And she used to be told when she was younger, she told us this story. That she need not, she need not worry about anything because she's got her color. To get her by I'm ashamed to tell that story, but that was the reality back then.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 7:15

Yeah, that's a real reality. And when I first started working on colorism, some of the first research papers and research articles I read looked at. Cultures like Brazil looked at the Afro Brazilian culture and how things are passed down from generations. So this has been in a lot of our communities for multiple generations. And the way parents are taught a lot of times, they continue to pass these ideas down to their children. And when we look at, um. Places that have been colonized basically by Europeans, there is a direct tie, a direct link to these ideas and a direct link to these, these beliefs with the indoctrination that European colonizers intentionally placed into us. And so it benefits, it benefited the Europeans who wanted power and control to, you know, position themselves as better than everyone else and to try and teach the world that to be from Africa, that to have darker skin was somehow, um, less than or inferior. And so we have a lot of unlearning still to do, you know, these conversations like this are helping us to move away from that. But there's still a long way to go in terms of really reaching the masses of people across the world to unlearn these very toxic and negative ideas and stereotypes.

Elton Brown: 8:39

I think that the Europeans use this technique in order to conquer and divide within our people. So it wasn't just about the color of our skin per se, but it was the psychological poison that was given to us to, to divide, to divide us. What ways are you using your platform to educate and raise awareness about colorism?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 9:12

Yeah, so I think it's really insightful and really appropriate, you know, um, when Rita said that hearing me talk about it on social media or online was, you know, had, you know, took her back a little bit and was the first time she'd heard that term or someone talking about it in that way. And I find. And there's sometimes there are generational differences and so sometimes I'm talking to like people who are much younger than me and they're like, Oh, I've always known about colorism and I talk about colorism all the time. And then I hear other people saying like, no, I've never heard a conversation like this before. And so my goal is to like, put the information out there when I started blogging about colorism over a decade ago, I was thinking about all of the research that I had access to because I was, you know, affiliated with different colleges and schools and thinking about the masses of people who would never ever read those articles the people who would never find or read those books. And so I see my online platform as bridging that gap and saying, there is a lot of research. There is a lot of testimony, a lot of analysis and a lot of, um, that a lot that has been written on the subject in there, but it's not reaching the critical mass of people to have that awareness and to know that it exists. And so also, not just. Not people not having access to it, but a lot of the research is very academic and not interesting to read, not easy to read. And so I try to make it approachable and make it a conversation that's accessible to as many people as possible. But in addition to just teaching people what it is, and the impact that it has, I also strive to help people be able to feel empowered. To also talk about it. And so a lot of times when I'm doing presentations and workshops, I'll always ask the question, how familiar are you with colorism? And how often do you talk about colorism? So a lot of people say they're familiar with it. A lot of people say, Oh, I know this. I know this really well, but those same people aren't talking about it. They aren't having those conversations. And so my goal is that by me initiating some conversations by me, sort of demonstrating how to have this conversation that it makes other people more encouraged and inspired to then go into their families and their communities on their in their workplaces and also have these conversations so that we can continue to spread that awareness.

Elton Brown: 11:33

You know, sometimes I think that there has been conversation, but it's always been the negative. It's not been a conversation to the positive. You know, this high yellow individual. And it's, you can hear the jealousy or the envy or, you know, they have good hair and what is good hair, but these are the things that we as a people had to deal with. And you're right. It's really not really openly talking about it, but it's talked about negatively.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 12:14

Hmm. Yeah. And I think kind of what you're describing is less. Of a conversation and more of like expression, because we can be expressing things without having a conversation. I think a conversation, um, implies, uh, openness and a back and forth exchange versus. You know, calling people names is not really a conversation, even though someone's talking, arguing, people might be fighting and having these debates, right? But that isn't really conversation. And I will say too, what, what impedes conversation, what hinders constructive conversation is people's unwillingness to acknowledge how much this hurts. And I, so there, there are different layers to colorism. A lot of times I have to introduce people to the research about how there's income inequality even amongst black people. There are differences in hiring practices, even for people who are black based on their skin tone. But most people aren't thinking about that systemic. Impact, right? Most people who come to these discussions are really hyper focused on their individual experience on. Well, me as an individual, I was teased or me as an individual. As a child, I was made to feel this way. Right? And so we have to do work in both of those arenas. We have to heal that. That individual pain, that individual wound, but we also have to be in practice around social justice of saying, you know, despite the individual hurts that we've had, there are real inequalities and real injustices. I use examples that are sometimes very uncomfortable for people to hear. But when I look at something like police brutality, for example. I, I asked people to really look at the pattern of who the, the names are. What did those faces look like? If you look at someone like George Floyd, right, which is one of the most Um, well known cases of police cruelty, he wasn't just a black man, he was a dark skinned black man, and he had full features, and people like Michael Brown and Alton Sterling, who's from my hometown, they were large in stature, oftentimes, plus sized black men with really dark skin, lower socioeconomic class, um, full features, right, and so when we take this approach that like, oh, well, all black people Um, have the same exact experience, we miss the opportunity to leverage nuance in an effort to really unpack and undo and dismantle these systems. And I, so I think we actually do ourselves a disservice as black people, because people, I get a lot of pushback, as you can imagine, there are lots of people, a lot, especially black people who just don't want to have this conversation at all. And I think that's another hurdle is like, so many people are like, Nope, we don't want to go there. We're going to sweep it under the rug. We're going to ignore it. But what I tell people is that it's. We're doing ourselves a disservice when we don't allow for nuance amongst our experience as Black people. And so I use myself as an example of Being skinny, I would never talk to my sisters who are plus size and say the society sees me exactly the same as you because it doesn't that's dishonest of me to say that me and my skinny athletic self and treat it the same way, exactly the same way as someone who grew up plus size. Right? And so being able to look at like, yeah, I experienced racism. I experienced colorism. I experienced sexism. But I don't have to deal with fat shaming. I don't have to deal with body shaming the way some of my, you know, sisters with larger bodies have to deal with. Um, even something about taking planes, right? On the plane ride to Brazil, it's like a nine hour flight. Um, being comfortable in the plane seat. And so the world is literally built for skinny people. And again, I would be disingenuous. And I think I would be causing harm to ignore the fact. That my life is different because of the body that I have. And so when it comes to colorism, we have to acknowledge that while we all have stuff that we deal with, we don't have the exact same set of problems necessarily. It looks different. There are shades of What it means to experience racism. We don't all experience racism in the same way, even though we do all experience racism. And I'm not afraid of that nuance, but I feel like a lot of people are afraid of that nuance for whatever reason.

Rita Burke: 16:40

Do you believe, Dr. Webb, that perhaps people don't want to have that conversation sometimes because of the discomfort that it elicits in them?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 16:52

Oh yeah, absolutely. I say this to a lot where because we have demonized privilege, the word privilege is like an insult these days. It's like the P word, like don't say that. And it's like, we demonize people who are white, for example. And we're saying like, Oh, they, they're so privileged. Like they're terrible. People are like white men are like the, the cishet straight people and like really just making it. It seemed like an internal or an inherent flaw to have quote unquote privilege. And so I think that makes people really shy away from or like try to avoid acknowledging the privileges that we have because it's become such a loaded thing or such a, um, like fraught topic of discussion. And so. We have to be able to sit with that discomfort and understand that to the extent that it's uncomfortable for me to have this conversation, there's someone on the other side of it who's in discomfort when we don't have the conversation. Right? And so somebody is going to be uncomfortable as someone who is on the negative receiving end of colorism. Right? I feel like it's worth the discomfort of having the conversation if it means I'm the disparities and income and job prospects and police brutality go away, then it's worth leaning into that discomfort. And so we have to ask ourselves, what's more uncomfortable? Is it more uncomfortable to have the conversation or is it more uncomfortable to allow these systems of oppression to exist and persist?

Elton Brown: 18:28

Can you give us some examples of the publications, media appearances, speaking engagements that you have been involved with to promote this conversation around colorism?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 18:42

Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start with the academic publication. So being doing, co-writing a lot of articles with my sister who happens to be lighter skin than I, which is always an interesting dynamic when we present at conferences together and people don't assume we are sisters because of the skin tone difference. Um, and she's married, so she has a different last name. So we always say that detail to the end and we're like, Oh, and by the way, we're sisters. Um, so I've done like a lot of stuff in the academic realm and getting during getting my PhD. And while I was a full time professor writing articles. such as looking at, um, surveying people who had been killed by police and, you know, looking at the percentages of them that were darker skinned, et cetera. And then also doing some literary analysis and publishing those things around like how, cause Twitter, for example, a social media is a huge place where people talk about skin tone and colorism. And so doing some analysis about what people have been saying. But then after, beyond that, and so for anyone listening, I'm no longer a full time professor. I sort of jumped ship to do my own thing, and I'm loving it, but doing a lot of podcasts like this one, actually, um, I do do a lot of like radio, some NPR stations, um, some NPR stations in Chicago, one at BYU, Brigham Young University, I've done, um, interviews with Mark Lamont Hill on Black News Tonight. Um, although I don't think they're any longer in existence, that was a while back. Fox Soul TV with the Tammy Mac show. Um, of course, you know, the TEDx talk, which I'm really excited about that one. You mentioned that one in the intro. And then also doing some like mainstream articles like the Illinois Times did a feature on me and that sort of thing. And then beyond like the, the big media. Radio and, um, like online streaming. I also get invited to talk to classrooms, um, high school classrooms, middle school classrooms. And of course, where my the business side comes in and I also get brought in to do trainings and webinars and workshops for companies and organizations and universities and that sort of thing as well. So I'm really. like open to talking to anyone because my niche around colorism is so specific. There are a lot of people who know about colorism, but there aren't a lot of people who are consistently dedicated to like teaching and educating on it. So I do get called on a lot when people want to have that conversation.

Rita Burke: 21:16

Sounds like you're in demand, Dr. Webb. Sounds like you're in demand. And I particularly like that and it seems like you're enjoying it. Now, on SpeakUP! International, we seek to inform, educate, and inspire, and I believe right now you're helping us to do those things. I'm particularly curious, however, about the international writing contest that you initiated. Talk to our leaders, talk to our listeners about that, please.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 21:48

Yeah. Um, I like that you said leaders and then like listeners, cause I believe your listeners are leaders. Right. Um, the international writing contest. So my training, I have, you know, uh, MFA in creative writing and I've published some of my own creative writing pieces. And so writing, especially creative writing is a big part of who I am and the work that I've done throughout my lifetime. And so when I started blogging about colorism. Um, I, you can see if you have a website, you can see some of the search terms, some of the keywords that people use to find your website. So I was just curious. I had just, it was my first time ever having a blog back in 2011. And I was looking at the keywords that people were typing into Google to find my website. And several of the people were typing in poems about colorism or poetry about colorism. And I was like, that's an interesting search. I would have never guessed. That there were people out there searching for poems or, you know, creative writing about colorism. And so I started searching for it and I realized that it was pretty hard to find. It was almost non existent back then to see things online or to be able to search poems about colorism and actually find something. And so I said, well, why don't we generate some content? Why don't we generate some poems and some creative pieces on colorism? And so I had the idea to do a contest because that. You know, there was a small cash prize associated with it to kind of incentivize people to do that. And it's, it was really the flagship initiative for the past decade and it's kind of emotionally overwhelming. Like I get emotionally full. I always get like close to tears when I talk about the writing contest because it has, um, people will email me or I've even had people make videos and like send them to me about how much that contest changed their life. Um, and how it was the first time ever that they were able to share their experience. And, you know, one of the young women, she was, um, like 15, um, in India. Like she was of Indian descent, but also in India. And we had this live stream where the contestants could come on and talk and read their piece. And she woke up at 5 a. m. her time in India to be able to participate in the conversation. And she's still a very active and avid. Um, follower and supporter of colorism healing even to this day. And so it's, it's one of the most meaningful things that I've done, honestly, to even more so than like the TEDx talk, even more than the fancy corporate speaking gigs is the writing contest because it's, those are the real people. And I think in terms of folks who have done the research on colorism, that These things are based on. I'm so glad that I'm able to apply that and like be on the ground, like amongst the people that that research actually speaks to and say, like, the research is important, but here's what it looks like in practice. Here's what it looks like showing up in someone's life. Right. And, um, people saying like, I thought it was just me. I thought it was just my culture. And so being able to. Have the contest be this sort of Mecca where people come from all over the world and realize that they're not alone. Realize that people from all walks of life share in similar experiences has been a very, very beautiful thing.

Rita Burke: 25:09

Therapeutic, I would say.

Elton Brown: 25:11

You have done so much. In terms of getting the word out, speaking engagements, radio, TEDx, when you complete one or more of these things, how do you feel?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 25:28

Oh, that is such a good question. I love when I get new questions. As much as I talk about it, sometimes someone comes up with a question I haven't heard yet. And this is one of those questions. And so I'll be honest, like my, I feel like a lot of, social pressure and anxiety before I go into like a workshop or a speaking engagement. So part of my emotional and mental energy is going in like, let's just do this. And so afterwards there is that sort of de stressing that, you know, where my nervous system is trying to regulate itself. Um, but it goes back to when I first started teaching high school and at the time I didn't understand what people meant when they said, if you can just touch, One student, if you could just influence one student, then all the work matters. It makes a difference. And back then in my early twenties, I rejected that idea. I was like, no, I want to help everybody! And if I'm not changing like every student's life and it doesn't matter, but now that I'm much more mature and have much more experience behind me, I understand the power of one. And so a lot of what I feel is Um, like that connection with one audience member, that one comment, or that one, like, If it's in person, like seeing, making eye contact with that one person and knowing that they get it, then I'm like, okay, this is, this is enough fuel for me to persist and to continue again tomorrow. And so really like every engagement, every connection is refilling my tank to say, ah, The outcome of this or the feedback from this workshop is motivating me and recharging my battery to wake up and do it again tomorrow.

Elton Brown: 27:13

I know that you work with your sister, and I'm just wondering, how does the rest of your family feel about what you and your sister are doing?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 27:24

Yeah, my family is super proud. And this is like with colorism, but also because, you know, I ended up getting like a PhD. My sister got a PhD and in my family, we are first generation doctorates. We're not first generation college students. My mom was the first generation college students. And then we were the first generation to get advanced degrees. But my grandparents were domestic workers and seasonal sharecroppers who had elementary education. Um, had very basic literacy, if at all. And so growing up, you know, even my mom remembers the days going to the, um, share cropping fields in the summertime and helping to pick cotton. Right. And so to look at the trajectory of that. Just within two generations, I think my family really appreciates that and respects that and my sister and I are both very intentional about dedicating our work to the people who've come before us and to our, you know, immediate ancestry, but also our collective ancestry, right? And all the people, even in my travel, in my travels and traveling the world, people are really proud of that and I know it's coming from that sense of, that quote, I am my ancestors. wildest dreams and so I think they are supportive and I, I appreciate the support that they've given whether it just be like texting me that I did a good job or, you know, showing up to events. I did a presentation in California and the Bay area where a lot of my family live and I had a cousin who drove over to watch me, you know, give it in person. And so I, I think. We as a family are not perfect, but there's a lot of love there and a lot of appreciation and respect for those of us who are trying to carry the legacy forward and make it a positive one.

Rita Burke: 29:15

So I'm hearing that your family right now, they're proud of you and I know for a fact that you're making our ancestors proud. So congratulations for that. You've alluded to the TED talk a number of times and I am fascinated with the whole concept of being on a TED talk stage. Explain that experience for us, please.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 29:42

Yes, so I want to I'm excited to be answering this question because I want to demystify the TED experience for a lot of people because I hear so many people say, oh, it's on my bucket list. It would be a dream to do a TED talk or a TEDx talk. And I think. One thing I want to stress is that really you just have to apply and I don't know if people understand that like for TEDx Talks, you can Google search TEDx Talks and you can submit a sample video, or you can fill out an application form and they don't even have to be in your local area. If you're willing to travel, you can do TEDx Talks anywhere in the world, really. Um, but it is really just a matter of, put it submitting an application to do one. And so that's what I did. I was, I had the good fortune of my, the university where I was a professor hosting a TED talk. It was completely organized by students. And I was like, well, I can't miss this opportunity to do, to try to do a TED talk right here in the city at the place at the facility where I work. And fortunately they accepted my TED talk. And because TEDx is a franchise, it's, um, they're independently organized. But they still have to protect their brand. So they have certain rules and regulations about how they're done. Um, so it's not like a free for all where you just get up there and do anything they have. You work with like someone who helps you with your talk and helps you gives you pointers. And they talk about what the lighting is going to be like. We had a black background. So they were saying don't wear black clothes so that you stand out from the curtains behind you. And so like little things like that. And then you do a rehearsal. Which was really good. I'm glad we did that because you get to experience being on the stage beforehand. And I did my TED talk in 2021, March of 2021. And that was right after COVID. So we were lucky. We were, we were right on the line because for a long time, people were doing virtual TED talks during the height of the pandemic. They were recording them or COVID 19. They didn't have like a live audience for some of the TED talks that were published during the 2020 year, but we were fortunate that we were able to spread the audience out enough to where it was still safe to have, um, some, a live audience there. It was a small audience, but it was nice to be able to actually hear applause and, like, hear people, you know, reacting in the, um, in the seats and things like that. So it was a really great experience, and I would recommend if someone really. Does have that on their bucket list to start doing your Google search and see any upcoming TED talks that have open submissions right now. You

Elton Brown: 32:14

know, you've been to so many different countries and dealing with different cultures and languages. Have you ever? Decided, or you maybe you've already been thinking about learning an additional language.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 32:32

Absolutely. So I've been learning Spanish for a long time and I haven't, I don't feel like my fluency is where I would want it to be. But also being here in Brazil, I'm really, really motivated to become conversational in Portuguese. And the good thing is that some of the words sound very similar between Spanish and Portuguese, not all of them, but there are several words that sound familiar enough to where. It's kind of should be like a somewhat easy transition, but my goal with, you know, if not like full fluency, because I know there are some linguists who have like, oh, there's a specific level at which you become fluent, but I at least want to be able to have casual conversations with people. And so I'm in the process of learning that I use Duolingo, but also, um, you know, just trying to practice it in conversation. So I'll use Google Translate. And then I'll like go to the counter and like say what is on Google Translate and then allow the people to respond, but I would love to be fluent in at least one other language. At first, I thought I was going to go for Spanish, but I don't know. I'm thinking like maybe the one I try to become most fluent in is Portuguese. We shall see. And then my sister, she, um, did study abroad in Swahili. So we would have, uh, in Kenya. So we would have Swahili. Maybe Portuguese and then some English within the family and my niece and nephew are doing like a dual language program in their school for Spanish So hopefully between you know us as like a nuclear family. We'll we'll be able to cover our bases around the world!

Elton Brown: 34:07

Now that's a new term Uh nuclear a nuclear family. That's that's new now. I've not heard that Ever. So this is great. This is one reason why I love these exchanges. I always walk away with something I didn't have in my pocket beforehand. Can you tell us some of the positive changes that you've seen happened with individuals because of your work?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 34:37

Yeah, definitely. So I know for Sure. And the good thing is, people, I think the, the beauty of technology is our increased ability to connect like never before. And so people have started their own platforms inspired by the work that I've done. And I really love that because I have tell people, I can't do it by myself. Like, I'm doing as much as I can, but to really, to really get. The critical mass to really reach the masses. I can't do it alone and the beauty speaking of language One of my favorite things that I've seen come out of this is that people have translated my work into their language so that it does reach more people because that, that is one limitation, right? If my, if my primary language is English, there's a whole swath of the world that doesn't speak English and that might not ever hear it. And so I'm really appreciative for the people who've, um. translated into various languages. Um, German is a big one. I have some really nice people that I'm connected to in Germany, um, who brought me on their podcast as well. Um, but I think the, the other thing is. When people, you know, reach out and say, like, I've literally had people say, like, I started to love myself more. I've had people leave comments and said, you've helped me practice forgiveness. You've helped me, you know, find more peace in my life. Right. And so that's the kind of feedback that reminds me that this work is working, you know, and then really quickly, a very practical, tangible result is had someone comment that my work helped them to get an A on their project on their school project.

Rita Burke: 36:19

That's amazing that's amazing. I'm wondering if their topic was colorism, do you know what their topic was?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 36:25

Yeah, their topic was colorism. So I get, um, asked, I get like, usually around the end of the school year. I get a lot of requests from like high school students, like teenagers who are doing a final paper or a final presentation on colorism and oftentimes part of the assignments. Requirement is to interview an expert or to interview someone who works in that field. And so I get a lot of interview requests from students doing their capstone projects or capstone thesis, sometimes even like PhD students and like, just people who are starting to do that, that work as well. And that I love to see that I love. It just makes me feel so hopeful to see a younger generation. Carrying the torch, right? Because eventually I won't be here to do this work, right? Or, you know, who knows in a decade I might retire, right? And so I'm so, um, it feels so good to know that the work will continue, right? And that there are young people who are interested in it and who are already doing the work in their various communities.

Rita Burke: 37:25

So you're beginning to see your legacy come alive.

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 37:30

You're going to make me cry.

Rita Burke: 37:33

Well, cry. Crying is okay. So, here's my other question for you. What makes you who you are and what you are today?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 37:45

These existential questions. I don't know if I'll ever fully be able to recognize or articulate that. Because I think part of... From my perspective, part of the human experience is that there's always going to be some mystery, I think, and I was actually reading an article about the universe, because I'm interested in things like that and how, like, most of the matter in the universe is not visible with our naked eye, right? With the human eye, like, there are just some things we literally can't see with our human eyes. And so it made me, You know, just reminded me of like how much the, the universe, right? Like the human experience sometimes I think is really beyond our comprehension as humans. And so we, we appreciate and experience the parts of it that we do witness and that we do experience. And so for me, a big part of what makes me who I am is a source. That I can't, I will never fully be able to know or maybe recognize in my human form, but it is like a greater power, right? A greater force. I do have a spiritual, um, perspective on life and on the world and also the, the lineage. The legacy that I come from definitely makes me who I am, and I believe in quotes like I stand on the shoulder of giants, right? And so even like my direct lineage, my direct family, but even like my literary ancestors, people like Alice Walker and Toni Morrison and Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston, right? Like, even though they aren't part of my direct bloodline, the work that they have done, the, the pathways that they paved for me to be able to walk today. Um, all of the, especially within the context of the United States, like the civil rights movement, like every. Individual who did something to make this world better is part of why I can be who I am today. And so I have a lot to be grateful for.

Rita Burke: 39:50

So how do you, how do you maintain your well being?

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 39:55

I love this question. I think it's such an important question and doing this kind of work is really difficult. I will say. One, because when I first started doing this work, I was at the beginning of my own healing journey, right? So colorism healing is the I N G. It's like, it's present tense. It's always happening. It's not like, Oh, I healed 10 years ago and I'm good. It's like, we have to constantly be doing the work. And so a lot of it has to do with. Learning and being self aware along the way over the past decade. 1, I know that the work itself has helped me to heal has been good for my emotional well being has been good for my mental health is to have an outlet to talk about my own experiences and to connect with other people. Right? So the type of work, the nature of the work that I do. Is inherently good for my overall well being, my sense of humanity, but because of that, because it is such deep work, because it is spiritual work, I have to have boundaries. Um, I know people are talking about being an empath these days. And so there's a lot it takes an emotional toll and a mental toll. And so it can be very depleting. And so what I've learned, for example, a very practical thing is, um, in DM. So people will send me private messages. And they'll really just put everything out there on me. And so I learned, well, I don't have to check my DMs before I go to sleep. Right. Because I don't want to hear someone's trauma story when I'm getting ready to lay down and go to bed. Right. And so I'm saying that can wait until tomorrow. My, my social media is not an emergency line. It's not a 911 line. And I also am very clear about you know, I'm not a therapist. Right? And so I, when I do work with people, when I do talk to people, whether it be one on one or in groups, I tell them, you know, I'm here to help you process your experiences with colorism, but I want you to have a relationship with a mental health professional as well. And so being very clear about who I am and the purpose that I serve in their work, I see myself as more of a compliment to people's mental health journey, rather than the core of it. And, um, there have been times when therapists have recommended their clients. you know, speak to me and that sort of thing. But again, it's always, you know, please have therapy. And then when you want to like hone in specifically on colorism and what it means, then that's where I can step in. And then the other thing is I've taken a lot of breaks. So I, you know, I started about 12 years ago with the blogging, but there have been some years where I took a break from the contest, for example, one, because the, you know, I was always. paying cash prizes. And so I was like, Oh, financially speaking, I'm going to like step back from, you know, doling out cash prizes, but I'm not, I haven't been like posting every day for the past 10 years. There were, there've been months where I wasn't blogging. I wasn't publishing anything. Now I might've still been reading and doing the research and doing my own work, but I wasn't always public. And I think that's really important too, is to take breaks and know that you don't always have to show up. You don't always have to say yes, and you can take. Time away from the work so that when you are ready to come back, you can. And then as I'm saying that also being willing to pivot. So I closed out the writing contest and I'm deciding to now focus on in person events. And so it's funny because I, today I just posted an upcoming writing workshop that I'm teaching in Baltimore, Maryland. Um, and so that's kind of like the next decade, the next 10 years. I am, you know, the, the writing contest was all virtual because it was international. And so in the next decade, I want to focus on like in person events and like bringing people together in person. And so being willing to pivot. Because the work has to feel authentic and genuine to who I am and where I am now in order for it to be sustainable.

Elton Brown: 43:51

Being authentic, I think, is extremely important, Dr. Webb. We have talked about so many. Layers of colorism, and I can see how your work has positively affected communities globally and have raised awareness about colorism and not to be ashamed. To talk about it. It's not something dirty, but it is what it is. And because of it, we need to be able to squarely look at it in the face and talk about it. This is the only way that we're going to be able to begin to remove it. So I want to thank you so much for joining us today, all the way from Brazil, which makes this even additionally special, and we hope to have you on again when you have moved into your next chapter,

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 44:54

Thank you so much for having me as well. I'm so appreciative when people are willing to have conversations like this. And so I really respect the work that you all do and the impact that you're making in the world as well.

Rita Burke: 45:07

It was certainly a delight to have you as Elton said. The door is always open!

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 45:13

Awesome.

Rita Burke: 45:14

The square, the square is always open!

Dr. Sarah Webb, PhD: 45:18

The link, the link is always open. The link is always available. Yes. Thank you so much.

Elton Brown: 45:28

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