Dawn Brathwaite's Legal Journey: Breaking Barriers and Weaving Diversity into the Fabric of Justice

[00:00:00] Ellington Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! 

[00:00:13] Rita Burke: I often say at the top of SpeakUP! International that we have the privilege, the opportunity to speak with people from all over the world. And today is testament to that. We are going to be speaking with a woman who is in Birmingham, England.

And her name is Dawn Bractwaite. Now, Dawn was born in England, grew up in Jamaica. And she always knew she wanted to be a lawyer. And she attended law school in Barbados. From Barbados, she came to Canada for further studies. And may I interject here and say, I believe she had the love of her life here in Canada.

Dawn is a dual qualified lawyer. Mm hmm. This is because she practiced law in Trinidad and in England and Wales. Now, after the early years of carving out a career, Dawn went on to establish a successful career with a national law firm as a healthcare lawyer. She is semi retired from law. As a matter of fact, she, she She is a retired lawyer.

She retired in 2021. And Dawn could boast about many non legal achievements, which we hope she will tell us about during our conversation. To our listeners, help me to welcome Ms. Dawn Bradtweat. 

[00:01:47] Dawn Brathwaite: Thank you so much, Rita. Thank you so much, Elton, for having me. I'm delighted to be here. 

[00:01:52] Ellington Brown: I am delighted as well. It's great to have you here with us. So how is the weather in the UK? 

[00:02:00] Dawn Brathwaite: This afternoon. Well, it's not too bad today. The sun's out a little bit and it's not too cold. We've not really had much of a winter. 

[00:02:08] Ellington Brown: Same here. 

[00:02:09] Dawn Brathwaite: Climate change. 

[00:02:10] Ellington Brown: Can you tell us how your upbringing, contribute to your strong identification to Jamaica?

[00:02:19] Dawn Brathwaite: So I was actually born in England, but I was taken to Jamaica as a babe. So that's why I identify as Jamaican. When people say, where are you from? You know, that question that triggers a lot of people.

Um, I always qualified by saying I was born here in England. I grew up in Jamaica. I regard myself as Jamaican because that's pretty much, you know, where my, um, early influences came from where my education came from. It's the culture that I know it's where all my memories were made. So, so I am to all intents and purposes, a Jamaican.

[00:03:00] Ellington Brown: I understand that because I was born in the States, obviously Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, but I was born there. But almost immediately thereafter, we were moved to, North Carolina. So when people ask, okay, so where are you from? Usually I give them a short story of, well, I was born in Philadelphia, but I was more or less raised in, in North Carolina.

So what were your educational experiences like overall? 

[00:03:34] Dawn Brathwaite: So it was, it was excellent. So, you know, my education, I always say to people, I'm a product of the Caribbean. And I say that quite, quite proudly. So yes, all my early education was, was in Jamaica, my high school in Jamaica, first year, um, law, law faculty was at the University of the West Indies in Mona.

And at the time that I studied law, if you were doing law, you had to do your second and third years at Cave Hill campus in Barbados. So that's how I spent two years on the lovely island of Barbados, um, completing my, my legal studies. So that, that's it. Yeah. 

[00:04:19] Rita Burke: It's interesting, Dawn, that you identify as Jamaican.

I find that many Jamaicans, regardless of how long they spent in Jamaica, will say they are Jamaican. I know people here who were born here to Jamaican parents who will say, I'm Jamaican. So, I guess, on the whole, Jamaicans are proud of their Jamaican connections. 

[00:04:47] Dawn Brathwaite: Absolutely. We really do. Hold on to our Jamaican identity.

And, um, yeah, as you say, wherever we end up in the world, ultimately. We are Jamaicans, first and foremost. 

[00:05:01] Rita Burke: So let me go on to ask the proverbial, the expected question. What inspired you to seeking a career in law? 

[00:05:14] Dawn Brathwaite: Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. And sometimes people are surprised when I say I only.

Ever wanted to be a lawyer. You know, I didn't have a plan B career plan, as it were. And I think those around me, including some of my high school students wanted me to do medicine. And I've just said, that's really not for me. I loved the, the oratory of, of law. I had seen, um, great, um, Lawyers such as Norman Manley, you know, in Jamaica, I've heard him speak and his use of language.

And the ability to persuade through language and that really pulled me in and I just thought yes, that's, that's ultimately what I want to do. Yes, and so it was only one box that I ever ticked and that was the box to be a lawyer. 

[00:06:14] Rita Burke: Let me hone in a little bit on that before Elton comes back. Did you have lawyers in your family?

[00:06:19] Dawn Brathwaite: No lawyers in the family and no, no, um, lawyers as mentors. It was just something that I aspire to. I remember being about, gosh, I'm going to say about 11 or 12, but I, This is a memory that stayed with me. I went to, you know, back in the days in Jamaica, you go to Sunday school on a Sunday morning. And I remember the Sunday school teacher just going around the group office and saying, what do you want to be?

And everybody said, you know, a teacher or a nurse or whatever. She got to me and I said, a lawyer. And she just looks so taken aback as if, do you even know what you're saying? If you want to be a lawyer? And I just looked firmly back at her and go. I'm going to be a lawyer one day!

[00:07:09] Ellington Brown: That's, determination. You were definitely focused on your legal career, which I think is great. And I think a lot of people get sidetracked because there are so many distractions that can pop up that can stray you from your goal. And you knew exactly what you wanted to be in the legal profession. You are times two, if I got this right. So what notable, achievements Do you think about during your legal career that you accomplished? 

[00:07:47] Dawn Brathwaite: So, um, I'll talk a little bit about my role as a healthcare lawyer, because that's quite a specialty area. So to, to the listeners who are outside of the UK, we have here what's called a national health care system.

So the NHS that provides care free at the point of delivery. And it's perhaps one of the largest employers in Europe, if not that the largest it's vast across the NHS, and they are lawyers who specialize in different aspects of advice to the NHS so so some lawyers may advise on employment issues. So I advised initially on patient related issues and subsequently on what we call commissioning.

So I advise the commissioning part of the NHS. various arms of the NHS on how they commission high cost drugs, for example, and decisions that they would take around that. And if a patient or group was not satisfied, they would challenge that decision through the courts. So I would represent the NHS in those disputes.

So, so to a couple of memorable cases, of course, being a healthcare lawyer, um, our clients work 24 seven. So we pretty much need to be on call 24 seven. So we had a rota in my team. So one of my memorable cases was, um, a hearing that I had to do remotely. It was before COVID where. Doing a hearing over the phone on a Sunday evening for a patient who was in hospital who had, um, I think sepsis.

which was affecting her ability to make decisions. So she couldn't think coherently. So she lacked capacity, in which case we needed the judge to make decision for her to have life saving treatment. Cause if you have capacity, you can say no to a doctor, but if you don't have capacity, then somebody has to take that decision.

And, um, so this was on a Sunday and we literally convened court with the out of hours judge. all the parties on the line and the judge made the order that the doctor could go ahead and do the appropriate surgery. Um, on the Monday morning, the judge made this order about midnight and she had the surgery the next day.

And what was just so gratifying about this is that once she had had the surgery and the necessary treatment, She couldn't stop thanking the consultant, the same consultant who she would have nothing to do with, you know, 24 hours before, but she was now well and she had regained. Um, her capacity and she was lucid once more and recognize that through this process, you know, we were able to save, save her life.

So that case always stayed with me. And then there are other various cases that I do about significant high cost drugs where we have challenges through the courts and, and we have to, um, you know, produce evidence as to why as a, as an NHS body, We're not procuring or commissioning a particular drug or treatment, whether we think the evidence isn't there, or at the time the request is made that NHS body just doesn't have the funds at that point to commission what are sometimes very expensive drugs.

So, I think one of the The, the beautiful things about health care law, for me, is that there is always a patient, somebody is there, you know, it's, it's that human touch, which bridges. law and medicine. It's not with no disrespect meant to anybody who deals in buying and selling property or land. That is fine.

Everybody finds their niche area in law. But for me, just making these decision and being a part of a process to enable this to be done was something that really kept me going through the long hours that were sometime required. 

[00:12:22] Rita Burke: Sounds amazing, Dawn. You speak about that career or that job with such passion that I'm really impressed.

You practice law in England, but you also practice law in Trinidad. Talk to us a little bit about the differences. 

[00:12:45] Dawn Brathwaite: Okay, so the difference is so, so you have to remember that I was at the start of my career when I was practicing law in Trinidad. So you're out of law school and you think you know, but you really don't know.

So you're now just honing your skills. So the main difference between law in Trinidad, or in fact in the Caribbean, and law here, is that there is in the Caribbean what's called a fused profession. So you're known as an attorney, which means you, you have rights of advocacy in, in courts. When you practice here, you choose whether to practice as a solicitor, or a barrister.

As a solicitor, you have limited rights of audience in certain courts, but as a barrister, you are an advocate. You know, that is what you do. You are in court every day. So I entered the field here in England as a solicitor rather than as a barrister. So that's the main difference that threads through all, you know, your career path here.

Trinidad, you're doing a bit of everything, the next, the desk work, the interface with the clients, the preparation, but you also, you know, can go to court. Um, although some, some attorneys you'll find they, they gravitate more towards court work than the, the desk interface with the client, but here you decide whether you want to be a solicitor or a barrister.

And, and that's the, the final track that you will follow towards qualification. 

[00:14:28] Ellington Brown: It appears that you found your niche becoming a lawyer specializing in health. I want to know, how were you able to use this niche to promote diversity and inclusion within your, using your profession? 

[00:14:48] Dawn Brathwaite: Yes. So I don't know if so much that I use my niche as a healthcare lawyer, but I certainly used my platform as a, as a solicitor and my platform as a partner and one of a few, um, black female partners in Birmingham at the time, I certainly use that platform to promote diversity. I, I've been mentoring young lawyers for, for decades, um, because it's so important that there is visibility. That it, for those thinking of a career in law, even in high school or university that they can, they can see someone who has made it all the way through to partner so they can, okay, if you can do it so can I, yes, the, the, the road may be a little bit bumpy, but it is achievable and doable.

And since, um, since retiring as a lawyer, I have take I've stayed with my firm, but I've taken on a new role as their diversity, inclusion and well being strategic lead. And that's given me the platform, the space, the resources to promote the wider diversity, whether it's gender, whether it's race, whether it's sex.

Um, sexuality, whether it's disability. So we're working through. how to open up the profession to the other groups so that it's not just pockets of diversity or the odd lawyer who is making it through to the partnership table as it were. 

[00:16:31] Rita Burke: How challenging was it for you as the melanated woman to find a job In Birmingham in England as a lawyer and to thrive in that job because people find jobs, as you know, sometimes they may open the doors for us, but once we get the position thriving and really enjoying it.

Sometimes it's a bit of a challenge. Talk to us about that. 

[00:17:04] Dawn Brathwaite: Yeah, that that that is so true. So, so I came here in 1991. With a non UK university qualification, trying to find my way. And that was difficult, because, you know, you get, um, you, you keep being asked these questions, is that the same law, nobody really understands that the caliber of the training and the caliber of the lawyers that, you know, that comes out of the University of the West Indies.

So, so you're looked at with suspicion, your degrees looked at with suspicion, and then you're black and female on top of that. So that's really hard. So I had to, I worked with smaller firms. So one of the first things I did was to do my master's in law to get a UK qualification on my CV in an effort to just close down that one conversation.

And then I have moved from a small firm to a slightly larger firm to get more experience under my belt. And then to another firm at which stage I did an MBA in law firm management. Because I, I had aspirations to be a partner at some day, some day I had seen practices around law firm management. Let's say that were less than ideal.

And, and because you were a good lawyer, does it necessarily mean that it equips you to be a good manager or a good partner? They're different skill sets. So I did an MBA in law firm management, which really helped me. And then with that under my belt. So once I felt ready and equipped, I then moved to a national firm that was open, and they really supported my growth.

I mean, I had to prove myself, of course, but they were quite supportive. And it was in that firm with the support of others that I, um, was put forward for partnership at some point, and it wasn't, it's not a tap on the shoulder, it's quite a rigorous process that's in place to make it through to partnership.

And, you know, once I became a partner, the imperative was, was there even more to ensure. That I held the door open that I was intentional in encouraging others to consider partners, just consider law, first of all, and, and to understand the stages and to map the route towards progress in their career, whatever progress look like for them, because not everybody wants partnership, but people want to progress and to know what their options are.

And, and to be in firms that value their contribution, and I was not afraid to change firms, you know, if one firm didn't work out for whatever reason, I was quite happy to go dust my feet or take my skills somewhere else where they'll be valued. 

[00:20:27] Ellington Brown: I don't blame you for the very reason that. In the old days, you were assigned to a company, you got a job at a company, you stayed there for 40 years, and then you retired.

Well, that premise has been disposed of, and I am just really happy to see individuals determine, this is as far as I'm going with this company, I need to leave and move to higher aspirations. It's wonderful that your law firm allowed you to promote diversity and inclusion, finding individuals that can actually help in those efforts.

Do you have any memorable situations in during this time period that you can tell us? 

[00:21:17] Dawn Brathwaite: During the time period of me and my diversity and inclusion work? 

[00:21:21] Ellington Brown: Yes. 

[00:21:23] Dawn Brathwaite: So, so I'm still in that role. And one of the wonderful things that we have done is to set up various staff networks. So we have the REACH Network, and REACH is short for Race, Ethnicity and Cultural Heritage Network.

So it's the staff network that supports staff from a racially minoritized background, and we're supported by allies. And it's just a great place. For staff to come and raise concerns or to feed into policies that are being developed in the wider firm. It's a great place where we have like mentoring amongst members of the network.

But we also, um, we also focus outwards into primary schools, secondary schools, and universities. So we have developed our Reach into Primary School program, our Reach into Secondary School, our Reach into Universities. So we're, we're supporting, supporting each other, but with one eye on each other. The next generation and the youngsters coming through and how we support them as well.

And that's, it's just amazing all the things that the reach network continues to achieve and we have five staff networks. I mean, time doesn't permit me to go through them all, but each one with a very sharp and intentional focus. on what they want to achieve and how they're going to just help to get that inclusivity in the firm.. 

[00:23:03] Ellington Brown: So what is your involvement in the charity sector? 

[00:23:08] Dawn Brathwaite: In the, in the charity sector? 

[00:23:10] Ellington Brown: Yes. 

[00:23:11] Dawn Brathwaite: Gosh, so, oh, ah, where to, where to start? Um, I've been a trustee of, of various charities. I am, um, an Anglican, so I'm a member of the, the Church of England, and I currently have been, have been elected to what's called the, the general syn of the Church of England.

So, so that keeps me fairly busy. And then I, I sit within Birmingham, so within the Diocese of Birmingham, I sit on the racial justice board. For, um, again, for the Church of England, just promoting and working through the anti racism strategy in our diocese, which is, which is so important. And I guess not quite charity sector, but I sit as a non exec director on one of our local hospital boards.

So again, that keeps me busy, but enjoyable. That's a great way to use my healthcare skills in that sector. And I am currently working on an amazing project. We call it Fusion, joining Gen Y and Gen Z to Jamaica. And that's a project all about, um, ensuring that our young people in the diaspora have Have a closer connection to Jamaica.

So we're developing a program whereby we take young people. initially from the West Indies, we hope, you know, in future years from across England and then across the wider diaspora, but to take them to Jamaica, to understand and explore the culture, the education, the business opportunities, just the wider, this is what Jamaica is all about.

Because what we find is that Um, with each successive generation, the links with Jamaica is getting, um, less strong. It's, you know, they, we just certainly don't have the links now that the Windrush generation had, for example. So that's a, a project we, we recently launched that a couple of weeks ago. So we're working hard behind the scenes to get that going for our pilot trip to be this summer.

[00:25:47] Rita Burke: John Bratweet, it sounds to me as if you are intentionally planning or hoping To make the world a better place than when you came into it. And I'm happy to hear that. Now you, you visited Birmingham, not Birmingham, the palace in 2018. 

[00:26:17] Dawn Brathwaite: Yes, yes, yes! 

[00:26:18] Rita Burke: Tell us about that experience. 

[00:26:20] Dawn Brathwaite: Oh my gosh. So I was at work one day just doing my stuff and this email dropped into my inbox. So I was at work one day just doing my stuff and this email dropped into my inbox. And I just thought it was a spoof email. So I, first I ignored it because I'm like, who is inviting me to Buckingham Palace to the Queen's Garden Party?

And then I thought, well, let me just phone this number and see if anybody answers. And lo and behold, it was a genuine email. I, my name had been put forward by the Law Society of England and Wales, because they, they get asked to suggest individuals. And, um, and so they had put my name forward almost as a thank you for the work that I had done over the years with them in the diversity space.

So, yep, um, Terry and I went off to this wonderful, wonderful garden party. The weather was absolutely amazing. You know, it was, it was just absolutely lovely. Um, the Queen and other members of the Royal family. They join us at a certain time. There are quite a lot of people at the garden party and there are several dates of several garden parties each summer.

So, we didn't get to speak one on one with the Queen, but we were certainly kind of in very close proximity as she milled around with her guests before she was taken off to have afternoon tea. And the food was lovely. It was a very, very special occasion and I'm grateful to the Law Society for thinking of me when they when they were submitting their names to the palace. 

[00:28:04] Ellington Brown: Are you telling us that you had proper tea with the Queen? 

[00:28:09] Dawn Brathwaite: Proper tea, proper cakes and proper sandwiches say with the Queen, but in her backyard and she was there. She was in her little area. Yes. 

[00:28:19] Ellington Brown: Hey, I don't know about you, but I would be telling everybody I've had tea with the Queen! 

[00:28:24] Dawn Brathwaite: I guess it was with the Queen . It's her garden party. She was there. It's lovely. Yes. 

[00:28:30] Ellington Brown: Absolutely. Wonderful. And speaking of wonderful, tell us about your grandchildren. 

[00:28:39] Dawn Brathwaite: Oh, oh, I've got two grandchildren. They're two and four years of their two girls. And do you know, when you have children, that's a special, special joy and you feel so blessed.

But when you have grandchildren, it takes that joy and that warmth to another level. So I, I, I enjoy, even though I'm so I'm just busy and doing, you know, all sorts of projects. I try and make as much time as I can to spend with them that they are absolutely, um, yeah, a joy to have around and just growing up so quickly.

[00:29:19] Rita Burke: Now at the beginning of our conversation, Dawn, you mentioned that you knew from day one that you always wanted to be a lawyer. Who or what would you say is responsible for the person you are today? 

[00:29:38] Dawn Brathwaite: Ooh, so I, I'm going to say I was raised by a village. Lots of people contributed to shaping and molding me into the person I am today.

And I am grateful to them all. But the one individual who's really responsible is my mother. And I am I guess so delighted to be doing this interview on the brink of Mother's Day in England. So on Sunday we celebrate Mother's Day and it's a real, to be able to just say thank you mom and to, to recognize her in this way is truly special.

She is just, um, she's given so much of herself to us. She is sensible. She is. She is resilient. She has guided us. She's coached us. She's led by example, and she is such a woman of faith. You know, we just, I just wouldn't be where I am today without her. 

[00:30:55] Rita Burke: Oh to mothers, huh? 

[00:30:56] Dawn Brathwaite: Oh to mothers, indeed! 

[00:30:58] Ellington Brown: Sounds like she is a wonderful woman.

[00:31:02] Dawn Brathwaite: She is, she is. 

[00:31:05] Ellington Brown: Tell us about your journey from, was it Trinidad to England? 

[00:31:10] Dawn Brathwaite: Yes. So, so I lived in Trinidad for, for a few years. And then we decided that, um, we wanted to try, try another country outside of the Caribbean. Um, I was born here. So had the British passport. It was an easy transition. It's quite funny because at the time, Both my mom and Terry's mom lived in the States.

They lived in New York, about 20 minutes from each other. But we were not convinced that we wanted to take two young girls to the States. That was the first concern. And the second concern is that I would have to read the bar in the States. I'd have to read the New York bar or some other state bar.

Whereas I was able to be admitted to the role of solicitors here based on the number of years practice that I had in Trinidad. So, so in one sense, it was an easy decision, but in the other sense, not so easy because we were going away from where we had childcare and that level of support. So a little bit into the unknown, but we just felt that it would be long term, a better environment.

And I think. Terry and I agree that we, we made the right decision and, and we made it work, but it's, it wasn't smooth. You know, you're coming in. We came at a time when there was the, the country was in de in in depression. Things were, were hard. We were settling in, we were trying to get jobs, we were trying to get both girls settled into school and, and just trying to, to build a life.

But again, if you, if you know what your long term goal is, and if you keep that vision in mind, you just have to weather some of the storms that are going to come your way, and ultimately know that things will work out. will get better if you keep going. 

[00:33:24] Rita Burke: But isn't that a part of her history? Isn't that a part of her history, going into the unknown?

And I would say on the whole, learning how to survive through resilience and focus and village and support, that's a part that I think that's built in into our DNA to some degree. 

[00:33:48] Dawn Brathwaite: Absolutely. 

[00:33:49] Rita Burke: Dawn, tell us about Tell us about the best piece of advice you would say you've ever been given. 

[00:33:57] Dawn Brathwaite: Oh, so the best advice I've ever been given is perhaps the same advice that I give to others. Life is never going to be smooth sailing. There will be bumps in the road, but it's really not if you fall down or how you fall down, but it's in the getting up and keep going. The other advice that I, that I wasn't given, but that with hindsight and knowing where we are today, that I give to, to young ones entering whatever profession is.

It's just about health and wellbeing. It's about looking after yourself and don't leave that until you get into your fifties. That journey starts early, eating well, sleeping well, exercising, meditating, just taking time out, you know, not just getting on the, I I've got to, I've got to work all hours. I've got to do this.

I've got to do that. You've got to take time out. to rest and recharge. 

[00:35:12] Rita Burke: And do you build joy into that as well? Or that's all a part of the whole bundle of joy?

[00:35:18] Dawn Brathwaite: Sorry, Rita, could you, I didn't quite get that question. 

[00:35:21] Rita Burke: Do you build joy into that as well? 

[00:35:25] Dawn Brathwaite: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely! Yes. Yes! It's the whole, it's the whole package, isn't it? It's the, it's the physical wellbeing. It's the emotional wellbeing. 

[00:35:38] Ellington Brown: I think that's really, really important that a career is not made in a week, and you have to figure a way to pace yourself in order to get to your goals without being burnt out and physically just not prepared.

The very goal that you wanted, you have it in your hand, but you're burnt and stressed out. Your health is gone, so you don't even get the opportunity to truly enjoy what you worked so hard to get . And I think this is one of the reasons why SpeakUP! International is so important, because we allow individuals to hear other people's stories, and hope that they learn something from them so that they can take that information and use it in their lives, regardless of where they are agewise. The UK is a interesting place to live. I've spent almost a year there on assignment. I would love to know your impressions of how you are able to interact with individuals that are white. 

[00:36:51] Dawn Brathwaite: So, it's, it's very hard to, we have allies, I mentioned our networks, and we, as, as a reach network. We are, we work very well. We, we welcome the support of our white colleagues within that network. Because to make change, you need everybody on board. And so it's not just those of us from a racially minoritized community who are going knock, knock, knock.

It's, we are affected but we must have the solution. We really want our white colleagues to go, we need to help to fix this or we need to fix it. We need to educate ourselves. And so that's what we try to do within, within the workspace. You will always find those and absolutely tell you they don't see race.

That's a problem who don't think there is a problem. Even within I was talking earlier about my role within the Church of England, those who will from rural communities who will say when we're talking about racial justice. Well, I don't really have any black parishioners so that's not for me. That's a problem.

Or who will go, we have other priorities to deal with right now. That's a problem. So we have to keep knocking down those gates. Barriers. We need to be ready as soon as they come at us with those excuses. We need to be ready to knock them back and to keep plowing and pushing through, but it will be difficult to say that everybody is against us or not supportive.

They are people and who are recognizing sometimes it's just the business imperative. People are recognizing that. You can't run a business and be excluding a whole section of the workforce. Your business does not reflect your city. And therefore, and also our, our local government, um, and, and by national government, when they go out with large scale, um, procurement exercises, they're now asking for the ethnicity data.

And so that's driving some of the change that we will see, but there will always be those that are lagging behind. And there are no quick fix measures that this is still a process, it is still going to take some time, 

[00:39:43] Rita Burke: I so agree. I lived in England, in the 70s, and I feel certain that the England today that's literally talking. Actually talking about inclusion exists today. So I have no doubt. And based on what you're saying to us, we're moving in the right direction. I will never say that we've arrived and I'm hearing from you that we have not arrived. But you do need those allies. There's no question about that. How easy it is to find those allies.

[00:40:22] Dawn Brathwaite: You know, it's not hard. There really are people. One of the things that we, we are trying to dispel is the, the sort of the wing that goes, Oh, everything's all woke and everybody's all woke. And it's a, it's a liberal movement. That's another one of those things that we just have to push back on hard. They are really good people out there with good intentions who will work alongside us. We just need more of them. 

[00:40:53] Ellington Brown: I agree with you. In our journey, Rita and myself, we're found several individuals that are truly dedicated to the cause, they are in the trenches, we're not talking about people who, you know, they just want to shake the pom poms and yeah right on for you. But when it's time to do the work, you don't find these people.

No, these people are in the trenches, and they're definitely working. I know that there are individuals that are Black who refuse to, or don't want to work with, allies because they're not the same color. , Okay, now we're going to do the same thing that they did to us, which was wrong.

 Two wrongs, does not make a right. What do you see yourself doing a year from now, five years from now?

[00:41:47] Dawn Brathwaite: So if I can just quickly say that the bit about the Um, people who don't want to work with allies. I just think that's short, short sighted as, uh, the situation where you have those who are black and brown who get to where they get to and pull up the gate behind them. That's, you know, we see a little bit of that and that's, that's short sighted.

Where, where do I think I'll be in this? a year, five years from now, probably still beating the drum around diversity and inclusion, to be honest, because there are no quick fixes. This is, this is, you've got to be in this for the long haul. And I'm working on this in so many sectors, you know, so, um, within the Church of England, racial justice is, is now a big theme.

And there's the, the program around that is, is significant. It's huge, but it's going to take a while. Within, within the legal sector, we're, we're following the numbers all the time in the wider sector and the changes are so small, unless we can speed things up, again, it's going to be a long burn and then we see the same in business communities on boards, between women and members of a racially minoritized community.

You know, we need to push. pass the, the token black on the board to tick the diversity space. We, we need to get more blacks conducting interviews and more, um, black and brown being interviewed. I say we need to work better with recruitment agencies. So when companies or organizations or firms go out for a short list.

I want to see organizations who are brave enough to push back to recruitment consultants to say, please send me a diverse shortly. So, there's still so much to be done in this space. I'm afraid it's still going to take a while. 

[00:43:59] Rita Burke: Yes, there's no question. I think we've learned and I think it's well known that change, meaningful change will take time.

 Elton talks about dedicated to the cause. Quote unquote. What is the cause? But you say that the cause is racial justice?

[00:44:20] Dawn Brathwaite: The cause is, there is an element of racial justice, but the cause is just ensuring equity and ensuring a better place for my grandchildren.

So I'm not going to get hung up on labels. But I want the lived experience of the next generation and the generation after that to be better.

[00:44:52] Ellington Brown: You've talked about two important things and that's you have to receive the education in order to interview well and it doesn't matter who interviewed you if you do not have the basic qualifications, you may not be able to get that position, you're looking for.

So education is definitely. important. Having that support system behind you in order to meet your goals as you just said, it, you know, it takes a village because you can't do this by yourself. This is also what the reason why we need allies in order to help us. Move forward a person that we that we had talked to a while back mentioned how we have all of these organizations that work.

More or less doing the same thing, but they're doing it in silos, imagine if we could get these people to just temporarily get out of that silo and they work together, and what takes us 10 years to achieve maybe we could do in five if we just left those silos and just all all work together.

And I think you were talking a little bit about that, about that earlier, in terms of breaking down all of these barriers that are keeping us from getting what we want, because it's not only us, but it's also brown people, and it's also white people. When you have all of these barriers before you, it makes it difficult and also makes it difficult for the people who built the barrier.

So it's a, it's a no win situation so it's important that we continue this fight, and it's important that we continue to show individuals if you can do it, why can't you do it? It's really that, it's really just , that important. Where do you see the health sector moving? Are there any discrepancies in terms of race and health?

Do you find that some people maybe you're black so you may not get the same type of health benefits as someone that's brown versus someone that's white. Can you talk a little bit about that, please. 

[00:47:17] Dawn Brathwaite: So I can talk a little bit about that. I'm not sure that I am equipped to talk much about that. But we certainly have a lot of studies that have come out in the, in the last two, three years, which, unfortunately reflect, um, a discrimination or an equal level of services when it comes to maternity services in particular. So we're seeing a lot of that that is being exposed and various hospitals are doing different things to, to tackle that. The other area of, which I think is important for us to look at is just things like how, how our doctors are taught medicine in terms of simple things like skin conditions, you know, if you look at their textbook, it shows how skin conditions are presented on white skin, but not so much on, on black or brown skin.

So therefore, that affects. How a doctor recognizes particular presentations on a non, non white skin, so there's just those couple of examples that that immediately come, come to mind. I know that, uh, hospitals, particularly, you know, I sit as a non exec director on one. And we're really, uh, making every effort to ensure that. patients get a high level of care irrespective of their color. So how we communicate with them, the language, you know, just various leaflets and all the different languages. And, but also in a lot of our hospitals now, because there's such a shortage of nurses, we have, um, quite a significant overseas recruitment into our hospitals of, of nurses from the Caribbean or from all across Africa.

So there's the whole piece about how our internationally educated nurses are integrated into the healthcare system here, all of provision that we provide for them. You bring a nurse over a cohort of nurses over in winter where they're being housed. Where are their children going to school? What allowance do we make for them to, to understand the way, how we, our protocols here and integrate onto the ward and how do we protect them from any sort of anti social or any aggressive behavior that they may experience?

So there, there are various programs in place to ensure that that works as well as it can. And that our hospitals, like any other organisation, are really focusing on their EDI programmes. 

[00:50:29] Rita Burke: There's no question that based on what you've said, England is progressing compared to what I experienced in the late 60s and 70s.

Now, you have said a lot of very important things, Dawn, but the one thing that will stay with me is the statement that we want to make the lived experience Experience of the next generation and the next generation and the next generation better than our lived experiences. So then, is there anything that we did not ask you that you want to share with our listeners?

[00:51:13] Dawn Brathwaite: Gosh, we have covered so much in this conversation. Um, I think what I would say to our listeners is we must not lose hope. We must not lose our our place. We must not go backwards. We owe it to ourselves, to our parents before us who had to endure so much. And we owe it to the next generation to keep pressing on.

But it comes back to what Elton said to lift up each other to link hands as we press forward, you know, we are stronger together. 

[00:52:12] Ellington Brown: I want to say good afternoon to you! It has certainly been a pleasure having this conversation with you. And also getting an opportunity to talk to you before the podcast began. So that was great because it allowed me to get to know so much more about you and your personality that was great! We talked about so many things and I have to agree with you.

We talked about your academic journey toward becoming a lawyer. We talked about your efforts in promoting diversity and inclusion. We talked about what you're doing in the charity sector of your position and being specialized as a lawyer in health and what does that actually mean.

You also gave our listeners the age old saying, once again, if I can do it, so can you. And that is so important because at SpeakUP! International we talk about being inspiring. We want you to be inspired from listening to our programs .

 I loved what you said, Dawn , just a few minutes ago, we must not lose hope. We cannot lose hope. If we lose hope, we lose everything. I'm going to steal Rita's line. We're standing on the shoulders of giants and each generation has to stand on the shoulders of us, in order to make those goals real, not only for themselves, but for generations to follow. And I want to thank you so much for your time. And I'm hoping in the future, we'd get an opportunity to have another conversation with you again, Don. 

[00:54:11] Dawn Brathwaite: No, thank you. Thank you, Alton. Thank you, Rita. It's been great. It's been great talking with you both.

[00:54:16] Rita Burke: Yeah. Such a delight. Your husband suggested after we spoke with him on SpeakUP! International that you would be a wonderful person to include and I agree with him. Thank you. Well, he's my 

[00:54:30] Dawn Brathwaite: big champion, so. 

[00:54:34] Ellington Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact Ms. Dawn Brathwaite, please be prepared to submit your name, your email address, and the reason why you wish to contact Ms. Brathwaite to info@speakuppodcast.ca. 

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