Shaping the Future of Law with Ben Grimes's Visionary Approach

[00:00:00] Elton Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown! 

[00:00:16] Rita Burke: As our listeners know, we have conversations with people throughout the world. We've spoken to people in South Africa, in England, in Mexico, in Brazil. This morning our guest was from Texas. Here we're speaking with a person who's just outside of Washington DC.

His name is Ben Grimes. Now Ben has enjoyed a career in public service. He then decided to shift his vision of lead to leader development with others. Ben believes that each of us has the ability to unlock the confidence to lead with trust, transparency and empathy. When we find the courage to do so.

According to Ben, we will achieve both professional success and personal growth. I'd like for our listeners to help me welcome Ben Grimes. 

[00:01:18] Ben Grimes: Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. 

[00:01:22] Elton Brown: Oh, my, this should be quite entertaining. Your job has kind of transition from being an actual lawyer to actually now training, uh, lawyers.

So, can you tell me how did you make that transition from doer to now teacher? 

[00:01:44] Ben Grimes: Absolutely. And, and, uh, my transition from doer to teacher on this issue of leadership really started a long time ago with my, my own leadership journey. I went to, um, to college. Got my undergrad degree at the United States Military Academy at West Point, which is, um, I think one of the best leadership training grounds in the world.

And I spent my time there preparing to become an army officer. And in addition to studying, um, and, and doing all of the normal undergraduate. Things, maybe not all the, maybe not all the normal things because there were no parties. There were no fraternities. There were no, uh, it was all, uh, uh, books and uniforms, uh, was, was really the, the focus there books, uniforms and, and athletics.

Um, but I graduated from West point and went out into the army as a helicopter pilot, and I took what I had learned that that. Those formative leadership lessons from West Point and started to put them into practice in the army as a helicopter pilot and along the way had the opportunity to go to law school, courtesy of an army program.

And then spent the balance of my 20 years in the army as a military attorney all along the way, whether it was as a cadet or as a helicopter pilot, or as a military attorney. I was always part of teams. I was either a member of the team, um, following someone, or I was a leader of the team creating the Trust and commitment and relationship within the team to make sure that our job was getting done.

When I left the army and took a broader look around the legal profession, it was pretty clear, and lawyers who are listening will know this. Rita, I think you know, you know this. Lawyers are not known for being, um, they're definitely not known for being collaborative. They're not known for being, um, adept leaders.

They're not known for generating loyalty, um, often struggle at generating respect. And I knew that the experience that I had and the experience, the experience that I've had, the training that I've had. And the opportunities that I've had to build teams were things that I could teach other, other people, and I could help other people grow as leaders.

Um, and I wanted to work specifically with lawyers because I really love lawyering. I love lawyers. I love the practice of law. I think that, I think that the law has a really special place in society. And I wanted us to be, I wanted us as lawyers to be better at it, at taking care of each other, taking care of our clients and meeting our obligations in the community. 

[00:04:32] Rita Burke: You've worded that so beautifully and in such an endearing way that I am beginning to change my perspective on the profession. Nevertheless, please explain what you do as a leadership coach. 

[00:04:48] Ben Grimes: Yeah, so I, I do, I do two things. One thing that I do is some speaking and workshops for law firms and leadership within law firms to expose them to the language and the tools of leadership, because it's not like leadership is not rocket science, but it's, it, it often requires.

And attention and deliberation to certain types of interactions and certain interaction skills that we just don't that we're not taught are important. And so I like to give the language and gives the skills so that leaders within organizations and law firms in particular. Can use to implement and, and make their cultures, their organizational cultures, more supportive, more collaborative.

That's 1 piece of what I do. The, the more direct interaction that I have with individual lawyers is with 1 on 1 coaching and I take the model of, um, traditional executive coaching, which is really geared towards identifying your values and, um, Setting in place the the plan and the tools and the habits and the actions that are going to lead to a particular outcome.

But I do that from the lens of leadership. And so I work with new partners or firm managers to, um, identify what's important to them. And then to work through how they can implement that through other people, through their leadership position and whether or not, uh, they're in a formal leadership position as a managing partner or a practice group leader, or, or in a, in a, in a normal kind of, uh, a non-equity partner position or a senior associate, regardless of where they sit.

And regardless of their formal leadership, I like to, and I like to help folks recognize and embrace with confidence their leadership potential, um, amongst the folks that they are working with, their peers, their colleagues, and their clients.

[00:06:53] Elton Brown: Tell us about how your mom influenced your studies and how in the world did you want wound up at West Point? 

[00:07:04] Ben Grimes: Okay. Um, so I want to first, um, give huge thanks to my mom, um, and I'm going to, I'm going to share some experiences growing up that, that she's probably not going to think, reflect great on her or our, or my childhood, but I think we're, are, are really positive.

Um, particular, particularly in retrospect. I grew up the oldest of four kids. My mom. Is was a single parent, a social worker. Um, and we were pretty traditionally poor, right? I, uh, there were no, um, new clothes at the beginning of the school year. Um, that just wasn't there were no, I didn't take a family. I didn't take a vacation.

With a family until I was married myself, and it was my family that went on vacation. They were no vacations. As a kid, um. There was, it was always a question whether or not the car was going to make it to school in the morning when she was dropping me. All right. We were legit pretty poor. Um, but what I learned from her was that it doesn't matter again.

It doesn't matter kind of where you sit. It doesn't matter where you sit in society. You have something to give. And I watched her give. A lot. She was a social worker. She was, um, one of the 1st rape crisis counselors in our area for which she's since received lots of, uh, accolades. She taught me what it was like to care for other people.

Um, and that is something that I think is critical in a leader. Is understanding that you have a responsibility for other people, a responsibility, not, not authority for over other people. You have a responsibility for other people as the leader. And that's something that I learned from her. Now, how I ended up at West Point, um, I didn't know how to pay for college.

Um, West Point is free. Uh, it's free if you can get in and look, I, I did well, and I did well in school. Um. I was a pretty smart student in high school. Um, but I didn't know how to pay for college. I thought you, I thought you either, um, had a family that paid for it or You got a scholarship that paid for everything and I didn't know how to get a scholarship.

Right? So I, I heard, and then I heard about West Point and it was like, hey, you can go to West Point and it's free. And in fact, they pay you to go to West Point. I was like, that sounds awesome. Um, and I applied and I was fortunate enough to get in and it's a, it's a whole process to get in. And so it's not like.

You just sent off a piece of paper and you get in. I, I really had to work for it. Um, I didn't realize that I could have put the same work into getting a scholarship someplace else. I just like, this is the place that's free. That's the one I have to go to. Um, and I was fortunate to get in and it was, uh, it suited me very well.

It was not without its challenges. Uh, and I'm happy to talk about some of my, um, stumbles along the way, uh, at West point and throughout my career, but I was very fortunate to get in. Um, it was a place that suited me and it was a place that has the opportunity to change my life. 

[00:10:26] Rita Burke: I'm fascinated with that story because inadvertently, when we talk to people on SpeakUP! International, mothers play such an important role in our interviewees lives. It is truly, truly amazing. Mothers play a great, great role. So, would you say that you are in the career that you've intentionally chosen? 

[00:10:53] Ben Grimes: I am now for sure. Um, you know, I went to West Point because I didn't know what else to do to go to college.

I knew I knew I needed to go to college. Um, but I didn't know what else to do and going to West Point put me into the army and I stayed in the and I enjoyed it. Um, but I stayed in the army in part, because that was just the path that I was on until I retired. And then I, um, immediately after my retirement, I took a job as an attorney for the federal government down here in the United States.

Um, and I enjoyed that work, but. I was largely on that lawyer path because I was already on that lawyer path. Now, I've made this transition to leadership coaching and, and helping the legal community change the way it interacts with itself and its clients very deliberately. Um, giving up a, um, kind of a tenured position for, for lack of a better description, a tenured position in federal government in the United States doesn't come lightly.

It's, it's a steady paycheck. It's benefits. It's insurance. It's all those other things. It's, it's, it's very easy to stay in a job like that. But I have absolutely chosen this path because this is what, um, it's a little hyperbolic to say it out loud, but this is what I feel called to do. This is, um, this is the impact I want to have in, in the, in the legal community and in the world.

[00:12:20] Rita Burke: So obviously you're getting a lot of satisfaction from this role right now. 

[00:12:25] Ben Grimes: I am. 

[00:12:25] Elton Brown: About this Black Hawk helicopter. You're a pilot? 

[00:12:31] Ben Grimes: I was, yes, my, my 1st job in the army was as a helicopter platoon leader. Um, uh, following flight school, I, I was assigned to a helicopter platoon in South Korea.

And I spent, um, the first, four years of my military career as a pilot, um, both in South Korea and at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. And I got to, again, I got to put leadership into practice. I got to, um, I got to do the, I was required, I think I had the opportunity because I was thrust into that situation, but I got to do the thing that is hardest for leaders and that is to lead people who are more competent than you, that have more experience than you, and it doesn't have to be in the.

The kind of the marquee skill set of the job. And so when I think about lawyers, it's important for lawyers to remember that you're leading, not just other associates or other partners on your trial team. You're also leading your clients who are experts in whatever their life or businesses. And with even within your firm, you're leading the legal secretaries and the paralegals and the investigators who are absolutely more qualified at their job than you will ever be at their job.

But you still have to be the leader of the entire team. And as a helicopter pilot, this was something that I really walked into right away number one, I was in charge of making sure everything got done safely and well, like, we, we had to meet the mission, but I wasn't the best pilot. I didn't know anything about helicopter mechanics and maintenance.

I wasn't the best flight planner. Um, you know, like, I wasn't the best at anything, uh, but I had, but I was, I was in charge of making sure that our mission got done well and safely and everybody came home and all of those things. And it's the same thing with lawyers. We often forget and every leader, quite frankly, we often forget that many of the folks that we're leading have more experience than us in the job that we're doing, a, Are more qualified than us in whatever it is that they are specialized that but it's still our job to create a unity of effort out of that and make sure that we're all moving in the same direction and I got that. I got that exposure very early. 

[00:14:49] Rita Burke: That's a very humbling way to look at what you've done. And I really appreciate that really, really appreciate how humble and authentic you are with regards to that. Now, where does emotional. Intelligence fit into this whole picture of leadership coaching. 

[00:15:09] Ben Grimes: I think it fits in in the acknowledgement that.

Leadership is a business of people. It's not a business of decision making. Leadership is a business that requires you to understand people. You don't have to be an expert at it, but you do have to acknowledge that we are working And interacting as individuals, and that means we each have feelings. We each have experiences.

We each have motivations and stressors that are going to affect how we show up every day. And I don't have to be you, I, we don't have to be experts at decoding all of that. We just have to acknowledge that it's there. And then, and then, um, as we're able, um, maneuver within that environment. It's, it's very easy to think for people to think about taking on a leadership position and believing that all they have to do is make decisions and tell people what to do.

Um, and again, you know, for, for my, for my clients who are lawyers. They either are very good at telling people what to do, or they're very bad at telling people what to do, and they shy away from it. But either way, they're, they're thinking about their role in that dichotomy of directiveness. Either I leave everything up to you, or I tell you to do everything, but there's no.

Acknowledgement of influence. There's no acknowledgement of, um, emotion and and and reactivity and relationship. And it's that it's that relationship piece that is so important to leadership because we're in relationship with the people that we're leading. We might not want to admit it. But once we do, we're going to start to get better at it.

[00:17:01] Elton Brown: So how do you motivate people who are, as you put it, much better than you skill wise? 

[00:17:10] Ben Grimes: The question of motivation is one that comes up a lot in, in, in business. Um, because businesses, law firms, they think about motivation in terms of they often think about it in terms of money.

And the reality is people appreciate different. They find different things motivating. Some people are very motivated by money. Um, the folks that I was working with in the army were not motivated by money. Um, that, you know, you get paid a fair wage. Um, but. Often, particularly as a young soldier, you don't get paid that much.

Um, and so you're really there for other reasons. And so wherever you are, it's finding those other motivators that are important. So in a law firm setting, there's a lot of talk about money. Lawyers get paid in some firms. Obscene amounts of money, and they will admit that, um, but getting paid obscene amounts of money is not always enough to satisfy the disconnect between your personal values and what you're being, um, and the environment that you're in.

If the. And I see this a lot. Firms will often talk about how much they appreciate, um, the collaborative nature of our associates and our partners. And that's what they talk about. And that's what the website says. We love each other. But in practice, that's not what's happening. And so this friction between what, what I expect and what my values are, um, is in conflict with what is happening.

I'm seeing and experiencing on the ground, and sometimes the motivation comes from acknowledging that reality and then finding ways to, to diffuse that friction, or it might be finding the things that lighten me up. I might want, uh, instead of getting a bonus at the end of the year, I want, I might, I might really appreciate public acknowledgement for my effort.

Or I might want opportunities to work with different people or on different types of projects. And by getting to know our teams again, relating as people and discovering what motivates them. It's easier for me as a leader to provide that motivation to them so it might be introducing them to another partner in another office and offering to connect them on a different type of work project, or it might be acknowledging them in public at our at our next kind of office retreat to say, Oh, Rita, you did a great job on this particular type of work and giving that public acknowledgement that is really uplifting to them.

But it's, it's motivation is really, um, about figuring out what, what works for each person. And it takes a little bit longer than, than just, um, signing a check, but it's so much more rewarding. 

[00:19:54] Rita Burke: Sounds to me like the book. Love languages that everyone has their own language and one and as a coach, you need to meet them at their level or their choice, their preference for language.

I like that. But you know, you're using a word very, very often. And I want you to elaborate on that. You're talking about collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, and yeah. I was in a particular field, a profession, where I would say to the people I worked with, very often they were learners, students. And I would say to them, what you're getting into is a human to human relationship.

To me, that was saying you're, you are one human being who is interacting with another human being and that in itself should ground you in your profession. So you'd be able to come up with your own personal philosophy of this particular profession. Talk to us a little bit more about this collaboration thing you're sharing with us.

[00:20:56] Ben Grimes: So, my 1st comment on this, and this, you triggered this when you talked about talking to other folks in a, in a learning setting, um, lawyers are not taught to collaborate. And I think this is true of a lot of different professions, but. Law school rewards individual performance, right? It is only you on the bar exam.

It is only you studying for exams. It is only you writing the papers, um, and doing the research. It really rewards individual performance, and that is starting to change in law schools around the world, um, but it, but not a lot. And in the early years of legal practice, lawyers are rewarded for their individual work.

So, you get a research assignment, you get a writing assignment, you, like, it is all on you. And what we forget about collaboration, it I think collaboration falls by the wayside for a couple of different reasons. One, we're trained away from it. We're trained not to work with others. That's, that's one problem.

That's one challenge. But the way that we think about collaboration, even setting that aside, the way we often think about collaboration is that we are either, um, shuffling off the work on someone else if we ask them to collaborate, or we're taking on somebody else's work. If we offer to collaborate or we're giving up, um, we're giving up the, um, the accolades for the work that gets done by collaborate.

We're sharing the praise. If work gets done through collaboration. Um, and one of the things I like to talk with people about is that, yeah, you are sharing the praise and there is a, there is a, an inherent value in that in relationship building set. Even setting that piece aside, I want people to think about collaboration in a different way.

Because collaboration allows us to amplify our own impact. If all I ever do is my work, then I am only affecting my work. But if we collaborate, then I get to impact three different other projects. Through, through that collaborative effort. And I can spread my individual effort out across multiple projects.

And so instead of spending all of my time on one project, I can spread that same amount of time out across three projects and have amplified impact. Um, and so if I'm thinking about my personal kind of brand and exposure in my office, maybe I want more impact and more, um, I want to be able to touch, you know, multiple matters or multiple cases, multiple projects.

The other thing about collaboration is that it, it is an opportunity for us to learn from and to teach each other. If I am an expert in legal ethics, which is my other passion, if I'm an expert in legal ethics and you are an expert in legal contracts, then by working together, you get to learn through exposure, some legal ethics, and I get to learn through exposure, some legal contracts issues, and we both get smarter.

And so there's an opportunity through collaboration to, um, raise the level of practice to raise the level of competence of everybody that we're working with in collaboration, while at the same time, amplifying our impact. And so I, I really like to share, um, I like to talk to people about how they, how they perceive collaboration so that I can give them, um, alternative perspectives on how to, how to approach it.

[00:24:37] Elton Brown: So you have redefined the word collaboration. Unlocking competence that can build or benefit both professionals and personal growth. How are you able to do that with the group of lawyers that you're now supporting?

[00:24:56] Ben Grimes: So, unlocking, unlocking personal professional growth through collaboration is, um, both the formal collaboration on work projects. So, when I work with an individual client, I can, I can help them see opportunities for collaboration that that maybe they didn't recognize, or I can help them to understand it in a way.

That is that fits with their value set and with their ambitions in a way that they didn't recognize. But the personal growth that that comes through collaboration is both the formal education, which I, which I alluded to the opportunity to learn new technical skills, but it's also the opportunity to grow as an individual because that that person to person interaction through collaborative work.

Allows you to get to know people in a different way, it exposes you to different perspectives and different experiences. And, you know, in this world that that continues to divide itself. The opportunity to come back together through collaborative work and use that collaborative work to, to change the way that we perceive the world and each other, I think is a real opportunity, 

[00:26:16] Rita Burke: Ben, earlier this week, I was talking with a young man that I admire greatly. And he used the term leading from a point of service, leading for a point of service. Do you want to talk to us? Because you're a leader, you're a leadership coach. Do you want to talk about that statement, please? 

[00:26:41] Ben Grimes: Oh, absolutely. So this, the idea of servant leadership, um, is one that has Over the last 10, 15 years has really come into, um, kind of the, a more, um, a more accepted discourse about leadership.

It used to be leaders told people what to do, and that was it. It was a one way communication and it was the followers obligation to support the leader and over the last 15, 10, 15, 20 years. The idea has has come to the fore that a leader's job is to be a servant to their followers is to take care of them.

And the philosophy being, if I take care of you, if I, as the leader, take care of you as the follower, the work. Is going to get done like it's that it's naturally going to happen because I've set the conditions for you to be successful. You've got this work in front of you. My job is to make sure the work gets done, but if I focus on the work and don't take care of the person, then you're going to be distracted.

You're going to be more, you're going to be more inefficient. Um, and, and quite frankly, you're not going to want to stay and do this work because it's an environment that doesn't support you as a person. On the other hand, if I support you as a person, it frees your cognitive attention. It, it allows you to feel supported and allows you to focus on doing the work that is in front of you.

And by focusing on you rather than the work explicitly as a servant leader, the work I, and I really like that. And I, and, and I like to think of, um, leadership, not just as. Uh, a servant responsibility, but also as a transformate transformative responsibility. So I see you now and I support you now in an effort of to get the work done.

But I am also seeing your potential to be the best version of you. And I'm helping you reach that point. And I see that as my responsibility as a lawyer, as a leader, because, um, if when I'm focused Uh, kind of care and develop your care right now. The work it's done right now. But when I focus on your growth, then the work gets better over time.

And I think of this as empowering leadership, which, which, in my mind, kind of combined servant leadership and transformational leadership into this empowering leadership, which supports you now, but with a vision towards helping you become an even greater version of yourself. 

[00:29:22] Elton Brown: Can you think of any situation while at work, you are doing your thing as a leader, and I don't know something happens, and you discover something about yourself at that very moment in this particular situation that you Are in can you think of any situation that you've been in was an aha moment. 

[00:29:46] Ben Grimes: So, yes, and, um, this was, this was a lesson that one of my mentors taught to me. Um, I was. I was the number two in an office, so there was an office of about, um, I'm not going to be too specific. Uh, but there was an office of about, I don't know, 15 of us or so. I was the number two in the office and the number one and I.

Um, did not see eye to eye on the mission of the office or how it would, how it should get done. So we, we, we, we were very, there was a lot of friction at the top of the office. Um, and above our group, there was another leader and a senior leader, and this, and I went to the, and I had a good relationship with this person and I went to him and I said, hey, boss, this guy that you got me working for, um, has got it all wrong and.

Uh, he, he, he taught me two lessons, um, in, in that conversation. The first, the first was, um, that it's not always the other guy. The first was that it's not always the other guy that this is we're, we're in relationship with other people and relationship is a two way street. And where there's friction, yeah, the other guy might have a part to play in it, but it might also be, you know, like, you have a piece of that too, you know, you hear the, you hear the phrase, it takes two to tango, um, and it, and it does, and it takes two to have a poor relationship.

And so one of the things that I learned, which was a pretty, uh, pretty, uh, late blooming. Aha. Because I was pretty senior at that point. It was a pretty late blooming. Aha. That like, um, I don't have all the right answers and I am not always right. Um, that, that when, when you're in relationship with other people, uh, you have a part to play in how that relationship unfolds.

And the other, the other thing, which is a little bit more fun, um, which, um, which I like to, to share with other folks more, more broadly is, uh, the idea of, uh, let it cook. Um, he said, you know, you're having this friction now, you're kind of coming to terms with each other. It's a process. But if you try to fix it, if you try to fix everything right away, you're not always going to make the best choices.

You're not always going to get what you want at the end. But sometimes if you let it cook, um, and let your essentially let your flavors meld together. Um, you might, you might be surprised with the quality of the outcome. And so this idea of let it cook, whether it's a relationship or whether it's a problem, I often use, use that idea with, with clients about problems that they see in front of them.

Well, let it cook because it might not be the problem that you think it is tomorrow. Um, or in my work as a, as a supervisor, you know, I often would tell myself, like, I need to let this problem cook. I will come back to it tomorrow and with the perspective of time, reevaluate it. It might not be as urgent or as dire as it seems today.

Um, so those are two, those were two aha moments. one of them quite personal. Um, that I learned along the way. 

[00:33:16] Rita Burke: Do you remember Michael Jackson song? Man in the Mirror? 

[00:33:20] Ben Grimes: Oh, yeah, of course, 

[00:33:22] Rita Burke: That was a man in the mirror moment, how did you respond to that suggestion from that wise person that said, let it cook for a bit. How did you respond initially?

[00:33:34] Ben Grimes: I was super frustrated. Uh, I, my initial reaction was, why don't you want to deal with this? Like, um, I wish that he had, um, jumped up and taken action right away, but, uh, I realized and it didn't take that long. I realized that. He really was, um, that wise person that you, that you described, um, and he knew what he was doing, uh, and it was, it was a, a valuable lesson to learn.

[00:34:06] Elton Brown: There is a concept that you are trying to convey to the lawyers that you are teaching, supporting, and they are not buying into it. How do you get their buy in? 

[00:34:23] Ben Grimes: I get their buy in by exploring with them where their resistance is. Sometimes their resistance comes from, um, a lack of, of perspective or experience. And so when it's a lack of perspective, um, kind of like what my mentor did with me, um, in that conversation was, was to step back and to help me step back because I was seeing, I was seeing me and my number one tang, you know, entwined in this tango on the dance floor and he helped me step back on the balcony and see what that relationship look like from the outside and to see what that relationship was like.

Um, the, uh, the effect that that relationship had on all of the other dancers in our office, all of the other folks on the floor in our office. And so I like to help folks. Um, if they, if they are resistant to some of these ideas, step back and look at where that resistance is coming from and look at look at the impact that that resistance has on those around them.

Um. And then we also explore, you know, what the basis of that resistance is. Maybe it is an assumption that, um, that they just haven't considered a different, uh, explanation for. And so exploring their assumptions and then helping them find perspective, that's usually how, um, that's how many people, uh, come around.

[00:35:50] Rita Burke: We're speaking with Mr. Ben Grimes, who is a leadership coach and who lives outside of Washington, D. C., and he's telling us his story, telling us about his own experiences. And as you know, and SpeakUP! International, we seek to inform, we seek to inspire, we seek to educate, and I think he's helping us with that.

Now, Ben, share with our listeners, perhaps, What you would call the best piece of advice you've ever been given. 

[00:36:24] Ben Grimes: Ooh, um, the best piece. So the, the best piece of leadership advice that I have been given, I think. Also comes from the same mentor. Um, and, and this, this, um, this advice sets the stage for creating relationship relationships between leader and lead and it's, and it's this and it's simple and a lot of, again, a lot, a lot of leadership is not rocket science.

Um, but it's, it's about intention and it's about focus. His advice to me was, um, you have to lead by shoe leather. And what that means is you've got to get up off your butt and walk down the hall and you've got to talk to people. You've got to lead by shoe leather. You've got to be where your people are.

Um, you've got to go to the motor pool. You've got to go to the flight line. You've got to go down the hall in the offices. And in this virtual world, it means you've got to call somebody up on Teams and have a conversation just to have a conversation. Not because you have work to do, you've got to invest that little bit of time to create a relationship and for lawyers, this, this is something I tell lawyers all the time because they, they think in time lawyers bill law firm lawyers bill in increments of time.

And so an hour is point one point two point six pieces of time and lawyers have to learn to invest point one hours in time to get three hours in increased productivity and increased quality of work out of their associates. Um, so leadership by shoe leather is maybe the best piece of advice I've ever been given on the, on the leadership front.

[00:38:04] Elton Brown: Speaking of advice, you may have a disagreement between people, not you per se. But there is a butting of heads between two people that you support. How do you get these two people back on track and smiling? And singing kumbaya once again,

[00:38:28] Ben Grimes: I think the, the first thing, um, the first thing is to set expectations. So, in the, in the immediate moment of conflict, the goal is not kumbaya. Um, and so it's about setting expectations in the beginning, both for myself and for everybody involved. And and I, I would, I would say to them, like, we are going to, we're going to squash this beef today.

You don't have to love each other, but but we're going to squash this today because it's interfering with what we need to get done. And, and then it's a matter of, um, kind of moderating the, the issues and the perspective in relationship between people, there's often not one truth. There's often your truth and there's my truth about it, about an interaction or a relationship.

It's, it's not a number, right? Our relationship is not a number. Um, and so your truth can be true. And my truth can be true, and we have to learn to acknowledge. We have to see the scope of each other's truth in conflict, acknowledge the scope of each other's truth in conflict. And from that position, navigate the compromise that's going to go forward.

Now, if this is a work setting, there may be some position, there may be some point or some, um, some opportunity for me as the leader to direct Uh, the outcome, uh, based on my truth, uh, but, but if I'm navigating conflict between two people, that that's where I want to be focused is on, um, helping them see the reality of truth from another perspective, 

[00:40:10] Rita Burke: Seeing the other side of the coin, so to speak.

[00:40:13] Ben Grimes: Yes. 

[00:40:13] Rita Burke: So let's suppose that You are invited to do a keynote to a graduating class of lawyers. Tell us three bullet points that you would have. In your notes to this graduating class of lawyers, please. 

[00:40:32] Ben Grimes: Absolutely. I think I've alluded to at least one or two of them already. Number one. Um, you're not as smart as you think you are.

You're like, you've come a long way, but you're not as smart as you think you are. And you're you're And if you, if you always act as if you are not the smartest person in the room, you will be more successful. So acknowledge other people's brilliance. Um, and you'll go a long way. Number two, be patient, be patient with yourself.

Um, lawyers put a lot of pressure on themselves, to be perfect. They put a lot of pressure on each other to be perfect. And I think we have to learn and practice grace in our profession and it starts with grace for yourself. So, um, you're not that smart. You need to be nicer to yourself. And at the same time, um, you need to find the thing that. 

You need to find two things that you love. One is a thing that you love in the work that you do. You don't have to love everything, but you have to find a piece of it that you love in the work that you do. And you have to find something that you love outside the work. Um, and so there's, uh, the three things that I would share.

I think, yeah, um, you're not that smart. Be, be nicer to yourself, um, and find two things that you love. I'm going to write that down for my next keynote. 

[00:41:57] Rita Burke: All right. All right. All right! 

[00:42:00] Elton Brown: Can you cook? 

[00:42:01] Ben Grimes: I love to cook. 

[00:42:03] Elton Brown: What is your favorite dish? 

[00:42:04] Ben Grimes: Oh, um, my favorite dish right now, my favorite dish right now is, uh, Mehadra. It's a, uh, kind of North African dish of fried onions and lentils. Um, and you can make it.

It's tradition. I think made with rice. I like to make it with, um, uh, oh, my gosh, with, uh, blanked on what you call that grain. It'll come back. Mehadra, that's my, that's my, my favorite thing. That's one of my favorite things to eat and to make. But I love to cook almost anything. I'll try anything.

[00:42:37] Rita Burke: Ben is the leader. He coaches leaders. So, how does Ben bring joy to Ben's life? 

[00:42:48] Ben Grimes: Yeah, what are the two things I love? Uh, yeah, in my work, I love Um, helping people recognize new possibilities, um, and see new potential in themselves and the people around them. That brings me joy in the rest of my life. I love my family.

Um, I've got a wife and two kids, and they are amazing. And I love I'm a serial hobbyist. And so I'm not good at anything, but I enjoy lots of things. Um, so I'm a terrible woodworker. Um, I'm, uh, once or twice a year seamstress. I like to sew Halloween costumes for my kids, although they're outgrowing that. I fancy myself an athlete, um, that is aging out of my athletic prime and, and, uh, I, I enjoy, uh, I will try almost anything.

I, I took up fencing a few years ago, um, which I also really enjoyed, uh, and just, uh, that has fallen away as well. So I'm a, a bit of a serial hobbyist. 

[00:43:54] Elton Brown: Wow, we are definitely coming to the end of this interview, but I do have one other question. Based on your background and your where you work, what is your vision?

Where do you see yourself? Five years from now. 

[00:44:11] Ben Grimes: Oh, I love, I love, I love that question. My, my secret and my secret ambition is to change the way lawyers interact with each other and with with clients. So, my, my secret ambition is to change the way we practice law, which is not so much the technical practice, but the, the people piece of it.

That is what I intend to do now. Will I do that in five years? No. In five years, um, I want the conversation about leadership to be one that lawyers at every level and in every firm are at least aware is a possibility. Like, we can talk about leadership and it's not It's not, um, it's not a topic that is unheard of in our business.

Um, often lawyers get hung up on business development and practice management. Um, but that's not leadership. Leadership affects those things. And I want the conversation about leadership and how it influences those things to be. Part of the conversation when those things come up, 

[00:45:18] Rita Burke: I visited the person in hospital recently, and to some degree, I was not happy with a few things that I saw, and I was speaking with a nurse last night, and I said to her, if I was the person in charge of that unit, I would be embarrassed to say that I'm a leader here.

When I don't even check in with the, with the clients, with the patients, I'd be embarrassed to say that I'm the head of this unit. And you just talked about that, in that, it doesn't matter what the, what the field, the person who is at the helm ought to, from my perspective, be able to say, I know who these people are that we're serving.

And I didn't see that, and I was very, very disappointed. So, I'm hearing you say that leadership is a human to human thing, it doesn't matter what the, what the field, what the area of expertise, and I'm really impressed with that. Thank you so very much for saying that to us over to Elton. 

[00:46:29] Elton Brown: The things that we've talked about, the questions that we've asked you, Ben, you have thought about these things, something that isn't just flying around in your head.

They're firmly planted. And that in itself is remarkable talking about leadership and the different types of leadership and how your mom fit into all of all of this in terms of caring for one another, which then pulled in servant leadership, because you do have to care for people when you are. A servant leader and you at West Point and so funny about West Point because you don't you only went there because it was free!

And, you know, I've heard about the reasons that people go to these, you know, these very posh educational institutions. But that one, that one takes it all and obviously you were smart kid you got in there, and you're able to transition from your military career into becoming a attorney for a government agency.

So, you are a stellar individual. Who has shown that leadership comes in all flavors and in all colors, and you do it well, maybe not as a black helicopter pilot, but other than that, you, you are excellent at what you do. And I want to thank you so much for joining us today. And having this conversation, 

[00:48:14] Ben Grimes: Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed this has been, um, uh, a conversation that really has been very comfortable and welcoming. And I, and I want to thank both of you for making it. So 

[00:48:26] Rita Burke: it's been a delight. And we like to say that we are enriched. We're humbled by having these conversations with people who are making a difference in the world.

And I thank you. I thank you. I thank you.

[00:48:43] Elton Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact Mr. Ben Grimes. So please leave your name, your email address and the reason why you wish to contact Mr. Grimes to info@speakuppodcast.ca. 

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