The Journey of Robert Small: Art as a Vessel for Black Historical Empowerment

[00:00:00] Elton Brown: Welcome to SpeakUP! International with Rita Burke and Elton Brown!

[00:00:18] Rita Burke: Recently, I was talking to someone about this podcast, SpeakUP! International, and she went onto our platform, to our site, to listen to some of the interviews. And she came back and said to me, You've interviewed some very esteemed people. I never thought about it like that. But today, indeed, we are going to be interviewing a very esteemed person.

 Is the recipient of the Order of Canada. He is the author and designer and curator of the Black History posters. He has a degree in education and criminology. Now we use these people's stories to inspire, inform, and educate. And today there will be no exception. I'd like you to introduce our audience to Mr.

Robert Small. Welcome to SpeakUP! International. Mr. Robert Small! 

[00:01:14] Robert Small: Hi. Rita. How are Elton? Thanks for inviting me. I appreciate it. 

[00:01:19] Elton Brown: It is truly an honor to have, you, who's definitely an icon, , in the Black community because of the way you portray famous Black individuals. That have guided the way for many, can you tell us where all of this started? I'm assuming it's quite complicated, but I'm going to let you start where you feel it's necessary for our listeners to get the Complete story. 

[00:01:49] Robert Small: In a nutshell, pretty much. Like I feel that my story is symbolic of the black experience here in Canada.

And I say that, not just out of ego, but the fact is I started with literally. A pencil and a piece of paper, literally, right? And that's literally how it started. And I originally started trying to thinking about drawing superheroes and everything like that pairs for Barbados, when I was younger, I was thinking about drawing comic books and running off to New York, but As I elevated age closer to teenage years, and my parents eventually asked me that eternal question, what do you wanna be now that you're grown up?

I had enough sense to know that you don't tell your Beijing parents or parents from the Caribbean that your dream is to go to New York, that to draw Spider-Man fighting the green goblet . So I knew not to say that, right? So for some reason, even though I was thinking, artist in the back of my mind when I finally answered that question, I said lawyer, right?

Because I knew that would go over with with Bayesian parents, right? 

[00:02:58] Elton Brown: Good, good answer! 

[00:03:00] Robert Small: Yeah, exactly. But no, but everything comes full circle, right? Because I never thought about not doing my art, but I was just, but I felt odd trying to aspire to become a lawyer and draw at the same time because it didn't mesh.

So I felt like I had to make. But going back to the black experience and knowing how that God speaks to us in various ways, right? God spoke to me in the form of a car hitting me on Bloor street. Go to my first year. I eventually got into law school. It was my first year. I was thinking I was going to be the Johnny Cochran of Canada.

And then it was my second year doing the poster and I was giving it away for free because I was juice off of Louis Farrakhan tapes at the time. And I just felt like our people need to know our history, right? So I was literally giving the post away for free, right? I felt that adamant about it, right?

So my 50 year old self looks at my 25 years old. Gosh, that guy was really idealistic, right? But needless to say. I was going to stop doing the poster because I was going to focus on my studies. And then when I was crossing, when I was walking the street, this car came through the intersection and hit me.

So consequently, to speed up that situation, unfortunately, I wasn't able to complete my law school studies, and I had to come back to Toronto with my tail in between my legs. But then I was in my parent. I was in back at home. I was still in my room that I had when I was 18 years old again and wondering, oh, my gosh how did I get back here , 

[00:04:45] Elton Brown: Can you tell me how extensive was the, damaged by the accident? 

[00:04:52] Robert Small: Yeah, I had a third degree, my kneecap was split and I had a third degree tear in my leg, right? 

[00:04:58] Elton Brown: Wow! 

[00:04:58] Robert Small: So it was pretty extensive, and for several years, I'm not talking about one or two years, I'm talking about like about five, really, a very long time, I was walking with a limb, right?

Because the muscles in my one leg. Collapsed, and it was hard for me to dedicate to getting it to the same size as my other leg so yeah, so it was pretty devastating both physically as well as emotionally, obviously, right? But the one thing that I said, going back to my story, the one thing I said to myself is that when I was in my room, I looked at my poster from the previous year.

And I said there's nothing stopping me from doing this poster now, because I'm not going to be a lawyer, so I might as well do it, continue doing it. And the rest is history. And, as far as I'm concerned, I'm glad about not glad, but, if. Everyone always thinks like that.

God gives you messages by opening up a portal over your back and speaking to you in the deep voice and stuff like that. But for me, if you can, if you don't acknowledge that your life is on the wrong course, sometimes it comes into the delivery of a car speeding through an intersection 

[00:06:12] Rita Burke: I hear you loud and clear. I'm not so sure it was on the wrong course, but you were redirected, which worked out well for you, didn't it? 

[00:06:22] Robert Small: Yeah, yeah, it worked out well for me, but I think that whenever we talk about these type of things, we make it seem like they were easy, right? It wasn't easy, it wasn't easy, one, to acknowledge that you're not going to be a lawyer.

Two the at the time, like the, I sped through the, I sped through the story, but a portion of it is because that if you go, if you're in law school and you fail one grade, you fail the whole year, you can take over one class and the one class that I failed this story, this teacher was typical of failing black students.

But I couldn't call him on it because he never said anything to me that was detriment and I didn't want to feel like I was trying to save my own tail by just throwing it out there with no credence and everything because the black student guys, I still was thinking of thinking a lot, so I didn't want the black students to be living under the cloud that I created if I just threw out an accusation, even though They were the ones telling me this as well, right?

[00:07:29] Rita Burke: But Robert, it wasn't, it was a long time ago that happened. And in those days, we didn't name things. Today, we would have no hesitation to say to that professor, this is what I've observed about you. But let me talk a little bit about the Black Pages Direct Team. Yeah. When I first met you, you were working with them.

[00:07:54] Robert Small: Yeah. 

[00:07:54] Rita Burke: What kinds of lessons did you learn from working there? 

[00:07:58] Robert Small: Once again, going back to things, the path that you're on, that was very instrumental, really, specifically the timing. Because when you met me, you're leaving out that I looked a lot younger than I do now. 

[00:08:12] Rita Burke: No comment.

[00:08:13] Robert Small: Sorry? 

[00:08:14] Rita Burke: No comment. 

[00:08:15] Robert Small: Ha, yeah. But the thing about it is I was a lot younger. I was like 25 and it was almost it's funny because I came out of the university believing in black empowerment to this, that, the other. And I felt oh my gosh, now I have to work with some white guy now.

And then straight out the gate. I was like literally straight out the gate. I was working for the black page directory creating and in, in the chasm at the time of black empowerment, really. Because the black page directory, we create a directory for the black community, as well as there is different events that catered directly to the black community for youth, as well as for business people.

And I would have to give it to them both Milson, Redway and Lin, Ron Douglas. No, despite what occurred, what's recently occurred that at the time that they created a week long, there was, they had a whole week of events for the black community from Monday at nine o'clock in the morning Monday throughout the whole week to 5 p. m. 

And I've never seen anything in the Black community ever since doing that. Once again, going back to historical things, if we knew what we've done in the past, it would be a template for what we could do in the future. 

[00:09:33] Rita Burke: So Before Elton, I'm sorry, before Elton speaks, I'll ask you a question. I want to, I wanted to go down in history that there were visionaries. They were smart people. What they did was fantastic at that time. 

[00:09:46] Robert Small: Yeah, that, oh yeah, definitely at that time. And pretty much that gave me the, when I left them, they gave me a template of what to do in the future. Because I said why don't I create something that I can get people to sponsor that caters to the Black community.

And I just do four events throughout the whole year. And I can live in my house and do whatever I want the same way that they will, they do, right? So consequently, I thought of the poster and as Rita, I used to call it the official Black History Month poster, right? And stuff like that, just showing my mentality at the time, right?

My 50 year old self would not call it that now, right? But at the time when I was 25, I just wanted something powerful and says something and that's what I did. And really, I really have to think of that, of that was an important time for me, as well as my mentality at the time, because if I didn't, if I didn't do that, and if I didn't think that way when I was 25, you wouldn't be seeing someone having the Order of Canada in front of you right now, right? Yeah. 

[00:10:52] Elton Brown: Tell us a little bit about the, legacy? Is that how you pronounce it? Collection? 

[00:10:58] Robert Small: Yeah, the Legacy Collection was a collection of different posters. I've created over the years of 30 years. Each year. I've created a poster that celebrates the contributions of African Canadians and focusing on their history as well as African Americans, and I sell across the country, the Bank of Montreal for the last three years as well as this year, they're going to be putting a miniature version of the poster and every branch across Canada.

They're also going to be putting a poster The six people that are featured on it this year are going to be on their electronic screens on every screen across the, across Canada. As, and that's not even considering the 5, 000 posters that I create that are going to be distributed.

Throughout Canada itself, right? The one thing that I would say with respect to the Black community, and, over here, in the many conversations Berk's Bookstore she thinks that it was just coincidental that I would pop by every other week and everything like that, or once a month, or whichever.

But, sometimes we learn through osmosis being around certain people. So consequently, if I was ever on Eglinton, I would pop, I would just magically pop by and buy something just to be around an elder who dedicated their life to empowering black people and realizing by their example, that there's some, that there's a deeper level of commitment that I had to reach.

I was not a man unless I did something similar to a Sam Burke, right? I was not a man unless I found, I was with someone that shared the vision that I had similar to Rita and Sam, so consequently. There are many lessons that just by, by being around both of them, it was definitely something that pushed me to become the person that I am because they show that there was a higher level to obtain by their example.

So consequently with my poster and everything like that, the lessons that they showed me as well as other elders, whether it be Gene Augustine or Alvin Curling or Hamlin Grange, that these type of people in our community. Create a an atmosphere of of what to obtain in the future when it comes to assisting black people, with respect to Hamlin Grange, like the first time that I appeared on the national television program, I had to phone him when he worked at the CBC and I was going, Oh my gosh, like I just phoned the CBC in general and they told me let me, let's put you on to Hamlin.

And I go, Oh my gosh, Hamlin Grange, that guy on TV. And I was nervous. So I explained to him what I was doing and then he said, okay, yeah, that we'll get someone out to you the next day, there's someone interviewing me. So I go, okay, that was pretty easy. The following year, I phoned up the exact same person and Hamlin wasn't there anymore.

And that person didn't pay me no mind whatsoever. All right. So God's ah, like how come they were all pleasant last year, but this one, the kind of. And Hamill's not there, but they just dismissed me. So consequently I had to put two and two together, to equal four that more than likely Hamill would put the wire to them to tell them to go look out for this kid like the previous year.

And being in close proximity to him when I worked at the YMCA Black Achievers Program, I further acknowledged that was probably the case because I seen him on occasion, I seen him advocating for Black people when there was no other Black person around, right? 

[00:14:34] Rita Burke: He was quite the leader. He was quite the community builder. There's no question about that. 

[00:14:39] Robert Small: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because it was only myself and him in the room and I was only some 27 year old kid. So I couldn't back him up. But he was advocating for black people beyond me thinking that the guy go, Hey, Hamlin, these people ain't going to do nothing.

But he was advocating way past the point that I would have thought at the time. So consequently, there's, it's powerful to be around, such black people as that I've been around throughout my life that have been leaders, both. Written leaders as well as community leaders by example, such as the people I've mentioned.

[00:15:16] Elton Brown: It only takes one person. Sometimes you don't need a group of individuals to make things happen. So in your case, it was just that one person that was able to advance, move you forward, where all of those other guys Obviously, either they did not, could not, or did not want to help you along the way.

I want to go back to the bookstore, and I want to know, we already know that you had individuals in the store that basically were energizing you to keep you excited and ready to go home and draw something amazing. Were there any individuals that you discovered through reading some of the books that you purchased at the bookstore that you wound up drawing?

[00:16:11] Robert Small: The, there's been a series, not necessarily a book that I created because at the time there's very few books on African, on profiling African Canadians. I know there is, Rita, you can help me. I think it was Some Black Women. It was a red, it was a red book out of, 

[00:16:29] Rita Burke: yes, it's called Some Black Women and they were Canadian books and there's several of them around. Yeah. 

[00:16:36] Robert Small: I can't remember the exact title, but it was, it had a red cover and there was like just a face on it. I think it was called Some Black Woman profile, different black woman in Canada, but they're very, at the time, there are very few books available for that featured African Canadians at the time, that isn't the case now, but but for me, yeah.

I think the one, sometimes you're mentored by osmosis and by people that are not even close to you. So consequently, the person that I painted the most, I probably painted Muhammad Ali about five times and reintegrated into my posters. I didn't realize that until last year that I've done it so many times because I always felt as if I was trying to aspire to be like him.

In different ways, because I felt like, cause there's no story, individual story that is symbolic of the black experience, similar to himself, the diversity element, the protest element, the sports, the advocacy, like everything almost seemed to be the humor the the handsome guy, the power, everything seemed to be rolled up into one concise person.

So consequently, I looked at that and I've drawn Muhammad Ali in different ways several times, but, once again, going back to take me on the characteristics of people that you've come into contact with. Or you've seen on TV, like I've actively thought about, how to emulate Muhammad Ali in my own life, whether it be courage or with respect to being when you're an interview, being jovial and stuff like that, because I realized that, by him doing that, it made me.

People more accepting of him accepting what he was going to say, because it wasn't delivered only in one specific way, right? So consequently, I said, that would be a pretty, that's a pretty intelligent way to get your point across because sometimes you alienate people with what you're doing. So with respect to my artwork, sometimes there's a time, there's times where the 25 year old self and my 50 year old self and come to conflict because my 25 year old self says, Rob, you're always drawing these pictures of black people smiling and stuff like that.

Like, why don't you do it angry? Because there's a different part of our history that's symbolic of, right? But then there's the other part of me that says, yeah, but Robert. If you did that, if you did a picture of enslaved Africans, hacking, taking machetes to Europeans on a slave ship, would it get into a school?

And would Lorraine be, who's five years old, be able to see like the ROI that you see now? So I, so a long time ago, I just recognized that my, that me doing the poster is a stepping stone for some other black youth or black artists to depict our history in a different way on the pop like unapologetically, but the same way 

[00:19:42] Rita Burke: You are saying a lot of very important things Robert Small on SpeakUP! International, we present the stories of people we considered to be community builders . And there's no question that Robert Small is a community builder. What was it like, what did it feel like when you woke up that morning and realized that your name was on the list of the recipients for the Order of Canada? What did it feel like? 

[00:20:09] Robert Small: Funny enough it felt at first, like I've always heard about, I knew what the Order of Canada was, right? But, and so when I was told, I got off the phone and I was like thinking about it, I was wondering how that would affect my life in general. Because now, but, and I only started getting excited when I started, when I said to myself, wait a second, isn't William Shatner part of the organic or the organ.

And that's when I started getting excited. Because then I realized that on the books, like I'm in the same category as William Shatner. So needless to say, like I started, but then gradually when I would come into contact with With black people who congratulate me on getting into York, Canada, I realized that there's a responsibility being in the order of Canada to, and going back to our discussions, whether it be at Brooks bookstores and more specifically at third world bookstore, I started saying, yeah, but now I'm part of a secret society.

That not too many black people are in, right? Because consequently, if someone applies to your Canada, they contact me. Yeah. Oh yeah. They contact me in order to say whether or not. And myself, as well as other people who are in it, not just me, but whether, and ask whether or not I should, they should be in the order or not.

So I was like funny about that at first because I was going, yeah, but then I'm a, now I'm a gatekeeper, I'm literally a gatekeeper. Might be part of it, but that, but then. And over the course of time, I started thinking, yeah, but Robert, but if you weren't here, some people would get in that you don't think should get it right.

That haven't done things for the black community or, and, but yet they're professing that they have. And if someone else with a different mentality was here, they probably pass them through because they don't know. So consequently it's a. I'm still working through it.

I'm, it's still really glad. But I view it in the same way that in my first, second year of doing the poster, when I was calling it the official Black History Month poster, and Loblaws sponsored it my third year, people came to me, Oh, you're big time now. The Loblaws sponsored it. You're big time, you're big time, right?

And I go, Why am I big time now? When last year, like the black community was sponsoring it and you didn't refer to me as big time then, so I accept that being told that I'm the order of Canada, them, it doesn't validate what I'm doing because I feel like I've been validated already by my own community.

So this is just really, just another step towards a bigger purpose. But it's not really about, I don't see it as a validation of what I do. 

[00:23:01] Elton Brown: When they,, created David, the statue , when you go to the museum, you can see how it progressed. He did several mock ups, I guess you want to call it until he got to the finished product. What is your process? What process do you go through when you are creating your posters? 

[00:23:25] Robert Small: I usually think of a theme. And once I think of a theme, I think of the people that should be associated with it. For this year, the theme is Legacies of the Water, and it features this painting behind me.

And profile and it has put the digital images of the people that are in it. And I always felt as if that when we leave the water is everlasting and this nourishing and such like that. And similar to that, I focus on people this year who have created things in our community that would last long beyond it.

Long beyond themselves, but it's nourishing to our community. It's helping our community. And so that's what I did, so consequently, I think the poster has lasted so so long because I have it because I've changed with the time. So consequently, with the poster, I have QR codes that if people scan it would take them to questions on these individual people.

With the poster now, like with AI, you can create artwork in two seconds. So needless to say, I don't really paint portraits now, but there's, but there are people who still want to see my artwork. On it, but the times have really bypassed bypass visual arts to a certain extent. So I tried mixing the two together.

So on my poster, if anyone goes to my website https://thelegacycollexion.com/, you'll see this image, but you'll also see. Integration of digital are working there as well. 

[00:25:04] Elton Brown: What is the highest. Buying artwork that you provide via the internet or in a real store, which one is like the top dollar commodity? 

[00:25:15] Robert Small: What, I sell I sell the posters of school boards across the country, like once again when I went through Burke's bookstore or or knowledge bookstore up in Brampton, or I just do downtown, like when I was doing at first, I would provide my posters, them to sell at the selling everything more.

Because to develop community and everything, but over the course of the years. I it took more effort to try selling individual posters than being at home sell, selling it to school board. So I can sell a hundred to a school board versus traveling to Brampton and taking the whole day to drop off 50, but yet they sell 10 throughout the whole month.

So consequently, I had to really rethink about, sorry. One, developing a sense of community versus reaching more people by coordinating my efforts more. So consequently, going back to what I said about changing over the times, there's my original mentality of when I was young of thinking more about the cause and the purpose and the developing sense of community and feeling obligated to that and having more.

And having more idealistic versions of it and trying to meld that idealism with the realism of my situation, right? And thinking that in the same way I gave it away for free when I was younger, I gradually started thinking I can't be some black Santa Claus that comes out during February and posters to the kids.

And then It then disappears come March. I have to sell it because I have to make a living. So consequently, if I want to sustain this idea, I have to make a living off of it. 

[00:27:08] Rita Burke: I like what I hear. I hear that you have become an astute business person even though you are making contributions to the community, and even though you are nourishing our community, this is your way of making a living.

But Mr. Robert, Small. . You also have a poster called Majesty of the Mountains. I want you to talk to us about that, please. 

[00:27:34] Robert Small: Yeah, Majesty of the Mountains, it folks features different activists in our community, right? And specifically, I always thought of Dudley Laws as a mountain in our community, right?

As a young, dark black man, like seeing himself, seeing him, advocating, it was very inspiring for me knowing that he was, in close proximity to me in Toronto. So it features himself as well as some other advocates in the community. Mrs. Hall is on, Sharona Hall is on there as well, who was an advocacy advocate during that time.

She advocated for people with HIV AIDS before, before it was popular and well known. So consequently Learning about what these people have done and who they've advocate for was a learning lesson for me, and I think when I say majesty of the mountains, once again, if you're referring to a black person as being majestic, it's empowering just by the wording itself, when you refer to black people as being mountains, when you're 10 years old and you read that and your teacher has to read it and your principal has to read it.

And you see it every day, by osmosis, you're thinking about mountains and the characteristics of a mountain and you're referring to Sharona Hall when you're saying those words, right? 

[00:28:58] Rita Burke: So your background in education is coming out even in your art. 

[00:29:02] Robert Small: Yeah. Yeah. So the same way. Even on this present day, when I feature Carl James and I'm showcasing a water and the powerful wave hitting the rocks, those attributes are now attributed to him on a picture, right? And those people that are profiled so constantly. And just with respect to. My posters in general, now that I've been doing it for 30 years, when I was about 30 years old, I said my, when I was younger, about 30, I said to myself, yeah, you know what, Robert, why don't you create a, this poster is really a plan where you are going to, you're going to increase the self esteem of black people by 5 percent every black history month.

Because if they go to the bank and they see it, they go to their school and then they see it again and they go to the community center and they see it again, it'll be empowering because they're being, it's going to be a message that's compounded every time they see it. So don't tell nobody about it because you don't want to tip anyone off that they're part of conspiracy.

It also needs to say, that's been my agenda all this time. And I've seen it working because. There have been five, but there, there are times where I was around Hamlin, Grange and Jean Augustine, and I was standing next to them, talking to them. And there were, I can remember there being, I can't remember if it was Hamlin or Jean Augustine or something like that, but there's like about three or four different younger people standing beside us.

I thought there were a way for them. So I just, said, okay I'll see you later. And I started walking away and two of them came up and said, Oh, Mr. Small. And I said, okay. Yeah. And they said, Oh we wanted to just thank you for your poster because our mother and our grandmother would always get your poster every year.

And they would read it to us in our basement, that we have 10 of your posters up in our basement downstairs. And I was flabbergasted because I was thinking they wanted to talk to Jean or talk to Hamlin or whichever at the time, and then I go, Oh, they want to talk to me.

And there was a part of me that felt that I was becoming Rita or Sam or Hamlin or Jean Augustine or Alvin Crowley that now. That example was myself, whereas when I was younger, it was somebody else, right? 

[00:31:26] Elton Brown: Why wouldn't people want to, talk to you? They see your beautiful work, there are always going to be questions that people are going to want to ask the creator. I know that you are a public speaker. So when you go out and you are doing your thing, what do you talk about? 

[00:31:47] Robert Small: Yeah I think, I think that, the same way that I, that I'm probably, I more than likely believe that Sam and Rita never thought themselves as role models in the community and that anybody was coming down to their store to specifically be around them.

But there's something to spot in like incredibly inspiring to see someone with an ailment, dragging boxes of books into a car and driving to Brampton. At like 50s or 60 years old, right? There's something inspiring to come to a bookstore every day and seeing two people who are married They're together every time you come in, right?

Like one isn't there and the other isn't there you don't know where the other one isn't, you know so consequently, it's you know, we don't know the powerful image that we give off, even though we're just thinking, we're just doing things day by day. So with respect to doing the poster and everything like that, the only time that I got tipped off that I might be onto something or that I should show my face is that I was invited to a school in Scarborough and my third or fourth year doing the poster and this white teacher brought me.

So I walk in the school, I walk into the classroom. It's full of black kids. They look up and they start laughing. And I start wondering why are they laughing at the laughing? Cause of what I'm wearing or something or what? So consequently I did my speech, everything went well. And then the teacher left the room to get my coat.

And I asked the students like, okay when I came in here, like, why did you guys start laughing when you looked up and you see me? And they said, no, sir, sirs. Don't take offense to it. Don't take offense to it. That, the fact of the matter is that our teacher, she's brought in speakers for Black History Month for the last four years, and they've all been white, right?

When you walked in the door, and we looked up and see that you're Black, we just started laughing because she finally got it right. 

[00:33:55] Rita Burke: I would laugh too. I would laugh too. It is a laughing matter. 

[00:34:00] Robert Small: Yeah, it was right, but the one thing that they said after that kind of stuck with me and they go that.

Yeah, but we and also we see these posters all over the place and we thought them as successful and we never thought a black person made it. They go. Okay. Thanks, but consequently, I said to myself, yeah, but Robert, you don't show your face to the poster anyway, because what do you, because I never thought that people want, would care to know who created the poster, but then I started thinking about, I said, yeah, but how many, how often are black people in control of the image that's projected out in society, like ultimately in control. And very few and far between, I go, yeah Robert, you're nominally in that regard because you put the people that are on the poster, you decide who's going to be on it.

There's nobody above you pulling the strings, but oftentimes in our community and in the wider society, there's someone that is that person is accountable to. That could, so consequently, like that's what kept me going in different ways and knowing that what I do is very important with respect to black people having control over their image and not bending about it. 

[00:35:17] Elton Brown: What I see when I look at your pictures is power. Every last one of them are very powerful images and they radiate. this energy, and I don't know who picks that up. Is it black people? Or is it other races? But I do know that there is a sense of power. I've looked at least 15 of them now, and all of them exert this power, this energy, and I'm hoping that the students and whoever else is Has the opportunity to view those works of art, and receives that same power.

[00:36:03] Robert Small: Yeah, thanks, I appreciate that. And I want to convey those type of emotions Because often times we're subjected to images where we're not seen as powerful. And that's almost purposeful. So consequently, the every black history month, I create these posters in order to combat those type of images.

But it just goes to ship. But to me, what you're saying, it just goes to show the importance of us telling our own stories, because oftentimes, people will tell their stories according to how they want it depicted. So expecting my posters, it's not just coincidence that you see a balance of male to female.

It's not just coincidence that you'll see black people of different complexions ranging from light to dark and everything, because that's symbolic of our community. I would say that I have to pick up the pace on having representation of African people directly from the continent, everything like that, and that's what one thing that I have to work on, but, and then also.

With respect to people who have advocated for the LGBTQ community or are from that community themselves, right? They might not have identified, some have identified themselves, but some some are from there, but for rightful reasons, they didn't want to identify themselves. And I just left it.

So constant, but they know, but so the consequently, I'm really proud of the poster. It's over the course of the years, it's evolved with respect to my mentality and with respect to technology too. I haven't bought a poster in many years from outside of my own, but I think it's important to, in respect to showing.

That dedication to the black community is something that is a lifelong endeavor that you can't just put two years in. Pat yourself on the back, and then think that you did your part, right? 

[00:38:00] Rita Burke: You've built this community, or you have nourished this community in any way. I quite agree with you. I quite agree with you. I want to go back to Circle. One comment. It sounds to me that everything you've done is, has been intentional. And I'm really impressed with that. Everything you've done, almost everything has been intentional. But I want to go back to the beginning of the story. Tell us about the first Images the 1st faces you had on the 1st poster ever.

[00:38:27] Robert Small: Yeah, the first poster ever was in 1996 and pretty much the only reason, the only thing I was trying to do was get people to be knowledgeable about my artwork. So it didn't even feature anybody specifically. It was a picture of a black woman and there is these. Images foot coming up to the top and there is an angel in the top right hand corner, so it didn't really, and it didn't have any words.

It was just a picture, but consequently, I decided after comments by different people and knowing that the history of African Canadians were not known. Then I started creating posters that actually featured people. So the first time that I actually featured someone of African Indian history were Rose Fortune, Peter Butler, the third Kay Livingston.

Kay. Yeah. Kay Livingston. And the Reverend William White, those are the five that I featured and Harriet Tubman. Those are the people that I feature on that poster. And then consequently, after several years, I started featuring different people. And over the, now the going on 30, like I have to think of different themes to fit different people because I started running out of of people of run out, but you have to it becomes harder to keep everybody on the same level, right?

[00:39:56] Elton Brown: So have you ever thought about other marginalized groups and do portraits or posters representing those marginalized communities? 

[00:40:08] Robert Small: Of different. Yeah, I've done posters on different marginalized communities. But it's sometimes been at people's request, but I've been hesitant to go forward with that because I don't want to appropriate their history type of thing.

So the things I've done are just very generic there. I don't think that they need to have a cultural tie to it, because I've done posters celebrating Chinese Canadians. So I've or so Asian Canadian, so I've had profiles on different Asian Canadians. So it's not really that deep, right?

And stuff like that, but I haven't gone for it. But, people have always mentioned that you should do a poster on aboriginals, right? I go, no, it's neat. It's needed, but. There is a minefield of like cultural relevance to the even relate to the art, let alone the depiction of the history.

Because their art is really symbolic of themselves compared to, like Italian Canadians, let's say, right? And stuff like that. So I wouldn't want to be accused or even, or personally, I just don't feel it would be the right thing to do. 

[00:41:23] Rita Burke: I hear you. I hear you. We have to be mindful of appropriation because we have sounded the horn loud and clear about people telling our stories regardless of how they did.

So we don't want to go step in there at this point. Anyway, stepping here, but I want to hear from you. One bit of advice you've ever been given that you consider to be really profound and it has guided your life. One piece of advice. 

[00:41:49] Robert Small: One piece of advice and going back, then Ham, Hamilton always cringes when I mention his name all the time, right?

But the one thing that he said to me. When I was 25, 26, and I felt the world was against me because when I was called, when I called it the official Black History Month poster, people, some people were not receptive to it, right?

[00:42:07] Rita Burke: I know that. I know that well. 

[00:42:10] Robert Small: Yeah, so I'd be blasted in public sometimes, right?

I was always, I always had my guard up all the time, because I was because people didn't know that I was my self esteem towards it was being battered and I privately questioned if I shouldn't be doing it right, even though in public. I was doing the angry black man routine.

I was saying, I'll do whatever the hell I want. But privately, I was going, Oh, Robert, geez, like it looks, maybe it does look bad. Like the people. Our elders and stuff. Maybe you should stop. But the one thing that he, that Hamlin told me one time is that he said to me, so with regard to the poster, he says what's your exit plan.

And I was 25, 26 at that time. I thought he was insulting me. Cause I go and I said why would I exit in my mind? I'm going, why would I exited? Are you saying that my artwork looks bad or something that I was thinking of a mind, but I asked him. Oh, what do you mean? But I didn't think that he was saying it badly, but I was questioning it.

And he goes, no, but the thing about it is like within the black community, we often wrap our self esteem and who we are around what we do. So consequently. When it's time to leave that what we're doing or leave that position or something half the time we act like a bear or what everyone when anyone even mentions it and we start killing people around us rather than give up right.

So I go, Oh, okay. I didn't really under, I understood that at the time we didn't fully understand it, but over the course of time, I go, Oh, they're what it's talking about. Oh, that's why that person doesn't want to let go of being president and stuff like that. Or that's why that person is still doing that company type of thing. And doesn't take any. And then, and when you suggest something to them, they don't take heed of it type of thing, right? Because they've wrapped their personality around what they do. So consequently, like I, when I started seeing what he told me up until this very day, I started saying myself, what. Like I have to realize that if if a young black visual artist made a poster and it was more successful than mine, you just let go Robert, don't take it as an insult. You actually inspire that person. Or, consequently.

With respect to doing my poster, just realizing every year I would Hamlin's words would keep in my mind and say that, Hey, if this is the last year, it's been a great ride, right? So just don't think that you have to hold on for dear life. If you feel that it's just about ego now and everything, right?

And the posters are not relevant that you that just know when the posters not relevant to people anymore. 

[00:44:57] Elton Brown: I think you still have many more years left before you have to perform your exiting strategy. And by the way, who says that you can't have more than one individual that's depicting, black individuals in our community or black people anywhere. It really doesn't matter if that happens to be a strong individual then that person should be celebrated. 

[00:45:20] Robert Small: Oh, yeah, definitely. But my, people always say that imitation is the greatest form of flattery, that's what they say. But if you're the victim of it, it's not necessarily true.

Because you're thinking that there's so many, there's so many different ideas in the black community. Why do you have to focus on this one? For me, if I could clone myself, I wouldn't be doing a poster. I'd be doing a conference on the first week of black hit on the first week of February, first weekend of February, I'd be doing something, and having that.

Being my flagship every year that I focus on, if I could clone my, I could do an online conference and try reaching a worldwide audience through, so the last thing I would be thinking about is printing a poster. 

[00:46:03] Elton Brown: You brought up a good point and that is when you talked about cloning yourself, which made me think, what do you do outside of creating these beautiful, depictions? I'm sure that it gets to a point where you're still like, okay, you know what? I need a break from this. I need to do something else so that when I come back to it. I'm fresh. So what do you do when you step away from your artwork? 

[00:46:33] Robert Small: When I step away from my artwork, I go down to my basement and I continue to work on cloning myself, right? I've actually I actually cloned my foot, but the rest of the body is still under way. 

[00:46:45] Rita Burke: I see that you did copy something from Muhammad Ali. He knows how to loosen and make things easy and light. And that's truly wonderful. You have spoken about Hamlyn Grange, and I'm glad you mentioned him.

You've spoken about Dudley Laws, and I'll have you know, there is hardly a person that we interviewed that didn't mention Dudley Laws name. That's amazing. You have talked about Sharona. Obviously, you feel that these people have influenced you, influenced your thinking, influenced your behavior in some ways.

I want to hear I want our audience to learn from you who or what has made you the person that you are today. Who or what has made Robert Small the man he is today?

[00:47:36] Robert Small: I think it's a combination. There's so many combination, different elements type of thing, right? You know that whether it be interacting with somebody years ago or being told something by somebody or seeing a powerful image on TV.

Or like remembering who I was when I was 25 years old and saying to myself that Robert that 25 year old wasn't wrong, right? That he was actually, he actually knew what was, what the fact that you're still here 30 years later is due to what that 25 year old thought. So with respect, so there's, so I think that I, and on top of that, you're here because that 10 year old that would draw Spider Man and the Hulk believe that his artwork would be valuable someday.

He just didn't know that he'd be paying black people when he got older. But he knew that his artwork was going to be powerful one day and that he continues to work on it. So you wouldn't even be here if that eight year old didn't believe that. So if anything I would, attributed to.

Me being the person I am, but also being open to the things around me, the contract that either told me I should go in a different direction, or I should add to certain things and be open to other people's perspective and being nurtured by the community that I was a part of, there that.

In 2007, like I featured only black women on my poster and this one and no one told me to do that that's something I did because in university I had there's four or five powerful black women that decided they were going to be on the panel. The whole executive, the Black Student Association at the university.

And at the time, I can remember people thinking that they were making a conspiracy to promote some feminist agenda, everything like that. And stuff like that. So it wasn't. They weren't received that well, but during the course of the year, when no conspiracy arised and they just were talking about their experiences, I said you know what what's the big, what was the big deal that people were that I, as well as other people were thinking that there's going to be some big uprising and stuff like that.

It was no big deal. So consequently, I wouldn't say that, that I've always been like aware of certain things, but there have been people around me. And I've done things that I said to myself, maybe I should change my opinion concerning that, or maybe I should add this to what I do because it just represents a black community in a more fuller extent. Right?

[00:50:16] Elton Brown: This conversation has been spectacular to say the least, because 

[00:50:24] Robert Small: Personally I would five stars, right? So 

[00:50:27] Elton Brown: Right back at you!

[00:50:29] Rita Burke: I I would say six.

[00:50:34] Elton Brown: You said something earlier and you talked about how individuals, everyone has their story to tell. And you're using your work to tell, the story. I think that is one of the things that we want to continue doing here at SpeakUP! International is to collect the stories of individuals that have made significant contributions to our community and to the world.

 You fit right into that category it all started in 1996. It's absolutely amazing. And I just think that you have another 50 years. To go before you have to worry about your exit strategy, and then after 50 years, then I'll bet you're off!

[00:51:27] Robert Small: And what you said, is evolved over the years and I think of exit strategy with respect to putting things into place that generations of my family can benefit from what I've done whereas I probably I might have. Come into knowledge about that later on in life. But by him mentioning that, it nurtured that type of thought pattern over the course of the years. 

[00:51:51] Elton Brown: You have your legacy. 

[00:51:53] Robert Small: Yeah. 

[00:51:54] Elton Brown: This is your legacy and you've, named it correctly, Legacy Collection because when it's all said and done and all of us are in the ground and we've all turned to dust. Your work will be there to continue inspiring individuals to look and go, Wow, I can do that.

Or is that what Norma Desmond look like? Wow. This is, this is really. Amazing. And like I said earlier, we can talk for hours and hours to you because well, you've got so many, drawings in your Legacy Collection that it would just be, inspiring actually to have you Maybe talk to us but a video podcast where you actually talk about some of your drawings and you actually show the drawing as you're talking about it.

I think that would be amazing. And I know I'm just putting it out there. I'm asking you right now, you don't have to give us an answer. But I think that would be amazing to have something like that. In our collection of stories and with other individuals who have helped our community.

So I want to say thank you so much for your contribution today. And believe me, I'm going to be looking forward to you. Our next collaboration. I'm not going to, I'm not going to let you go because I really want to, I really want to make this happen where we have this as a. mini event via Zoom where you get to actually talk about some of your drawings and what you had to go through in order to make it work.

And how did you come to the point where you said, Oh, these are the characters I want to put on up on a. On this piece of paper to, for what, for black history month. 

[00:54:07] Robert Small: So just, sorry, just to interrupt you, but, because there's a lot of things that come into play when I'm making a poster, oftentimes, if I go to the, to an event, like about three people would privately ask me, Oh, Rob, what, why do you put me on that poster?

Why do you put me on that poster? And stuff like that. And some of them. Yeah, incredible. But some of them I'm going, yeah, you just work at the world bank as a manager. Like why would I put you on it? That's what I'm thinking in my mind. And stuff like that. It was so funny because one time I'll tell you this one story.

She won't care because she put on social media, so Trey, when I asked Trey Anthony, if she wants to be on the poster. That year she put on their social media that, oh, I'm so thrilled to be on the Legacy poster. 'cause I know Robert doesn't put on anybody. . So I got and I started laughing.

I said, oh my gosh. Oh I'm not debate. Thought of as some hard nos that, that. Only you have to be a certain way to get on it type thing. Cause I thought that she would think that I would put her on it. Given what she's done. But the thing about it is, it's like a very important to to.

To show the black community that there's a higher ground to aspire towards this, so that's why I can't put it like anybody on it just because you're the CEO of something. Because to me, you're supposed to get a good job. And that's what you got. So you're supposed to do that.

I, but if you're the CEO of the Royal Bank and you create a program for black youth that gets them into the financial field, and you've been doing that for 15 years, that's a different story. You didn't have to do that. So concept, but we have a lot of black people who have titles, but they haven't done anything.

[00:55:50] Rita Burke: Much, SpeakUP! International. You highlight the people who are community builders, people who nourish our community. And that is our intent and our promise to our community that we are interviewing for SpeakUP! International, those people who are small giants, they are doing marvelous and important things for our community. That's clear to what we do. And we are very selective about who we invite to be on SpeakUP! International. 

[00:56:18] Elton Brown: Thank you and we're going to look forward to seeing you and hearing from you again. 

[00:56:26] Robert Small: Okay, thanks for the invite. I appreciate being here. 

[00:56:29] Rita Burke: Thank you, Robert. Thank you. Thank you

[00:56:30] Elton Brown: Thank you for listening to SpeakUP! International. If you wish to contact Mr. Robert smalls, please leave your name. Your email address and the reason why you wish to contact Mr. Smalls. To his web address, thelegacycollexion.com and that's spelled T H E L E G A C Y C O L L E X I O N. com, or you can DM him via LinkedIn. 

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